Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?

[HotRod]

especially when the debated pre-TOS series had rathed dull characters

The irony of you saying this while being a obsessed fan of Kes, is not lost on me.

and didn't look like a pre-TOS serie either.

Discovery can be argued, but Enterprise and Strange New Worlds perfectly aligned with what I think Pre-TOS could look like. Albeit with modern effects and budgets and production design.

But what they have now isn't Romulans but something lukewarm and bland. A defeated people who will be something completly different.

Sometimes shit happens. Look at our own history and how many empires have risen and fallen over the millennia.

Besides, this all sounds like an amazing opportunity for storytelling and making the Romulans far more interesting.

It will be very different

And that's a bad thing? Seems to me that you're afraid of change.

I don't think that it will be as interesting as the original Romulans.

Who really weren't that interesting once you got past the whole Vulcan connection. For the most part they were scheming, mustache twirling villains.

 

[fireproof78]

What did the Romulans do that was that interesting?

I love the Romulans but man they were not that dynamic of a people.

 

[Dar70]

Erm... no.

Definitely not putting Star Trek to rest.

After yesterday's SNW I really wish they would ..

 

[Lynx]

The irony of you saying this while being a obsessed fan of Kes, is not lost on me.

Kes isn't dull!
When it comes to dull, even Flotter was more interesting than the whole ENT cast together.
As for me, i have good taste when it comes to characters!

Discovery can be argued, but Enterprise and Strange New Worlds perfectly aligned with what I think Pre-TOS could look like. Albeit with modern effects and budgets and production design.

Maybe SNW but definitely not ENT.

Sometimes shit happens. Look at our own history and how many empires have risen and fallen over the millennia.

Besides, this all sounds like an amazing opportunity for storytelling and making the Romulans far more interesting.

yes, but in this case it was unnecessary and stupid, obviously some ego-manic producer who wanted to set his mark on Star Trek.

If they want to have something new and interesting, why don't create some new species instead of ruin one which have been an importamnt part of Star Trek since the start.

And that's a bad thing? Seems to me that you're afraid of change.

No, I'm not afraid och change as such. But I don't like changes just for the sake of changing or bad changes.

Unfortunately, i've seen to many bad and unnecessary changes in recent years and i'm not only talking of Star Trek here.

[/QUOTE]Who really weren't that interesting once you got past the whole Vulcan connection. For the most part they were scheming, mustache twirling villains.
[/QUOTE]
Still they were an imporant part of Star Trek and destroying them the way they have done is only stupid.

 

[fireproof78]

 

[fireproof78]

Still they were an imporant part of Star Trek and destroying them the way they have done is only stupid

Nope.

 

[Turtletrekker]

The irony of you saying this while being a obsessed fan of Kes, is not lost on me.

Nor on a lot of other people. I'm at a loss to think of even one interesting thing that Kes ever did or that was done with her. A complete zero.

 

[FredH]

The Romulans were plenty interesting in every era, but it’s good that they’re interesting differently in different eras. Weary and dutiful but disillusioned soldiers in BoT? Great! Enthusiastic schemers in TNG? Great! Unhealthily emotionally complex figures in early PIC? Great! Dissident warrior nuns, also in PIC? Great! Standard traditional villains, also in PIC? …not so great, but it’s a tradition, so hey! Politicking Ni’Var citizens? Great!

Yeah, not seeing the advantage in just leaving them as Space Romans forever.

 

[FredH]

Nor on a lot of other people. I'm at a loss to think of even one interesting thing that Kes ever did or was done with her.

I liked Kes. There was certainly a lot that could have been done with her (just as there was with the whole Marquis/Starfleet mixed crew thing), especially as a character we would’ve seen passing through the various stages of life in real time (have the first season be her “20s”, S2 her “30s”, up through S5 as her “60s” and S7, if she hadn’t yet passed, as her “80s”. And while I’m dreaming, obviously TV doesn’t work this way, but it’d be great if they made sure to have her most important episodes written by writers of the equivalent age, so they’d “get” her in a way they wouldn’t if the whole thing was written by thirtysomethings.

(Plus that would change the whole Neelix relationship from “older guy creepily with young person” into Kes quite naturally just outgrowing him, because after a certain point he’s the kid now.)

(EDIT: Huh. I almost never do “they shoulda done this instead” posts, some comments about Lorca notwithstanding.)

 

[fireproof78]

The Romulans were plenty interesting in every era, but it’s good that they’re interesting differently in different eras. Weary and dutiful but disillusioned soldiers in BoT? Great! Enthusiastic schemers in TNG? Great! Unhealthily emotionally complex figures in early PIC? Great! Dissident warrior nuns, also in PIC? Great! Standard traditional villains, also in PIC? …not so great, but it’s a tradition, so hey! Politicking Ni’Var citizens? Great!

Yeah, not seeing the advantage in just leaving them as Space Romans forever.

That's fair but nothing in there saves them from having a planet being destroyed just because they were there early on.

 

[HotRod]

Kes isn't dull!
When it comes to dull, even Flotter was more interesting than the whole ENT cast together.

Travis Mayweather on his worst days was still far more interesting than Kes ever was. She was a dead weight character who was thankfully removed. It's near universally believed that Voyager was improved, ever so slightly, by the replacement of her with Seven of Nine.

As for me, i have good taste when it comes to characters!

That image you posted is like playing a game of which one of these things is not like the other?

definitely not ENT.

Maybe in your opinion. I have no problem connecting Enterprise to The Original Series.

yes, but in this case it was unnecessary and stupid, obviously some ego-manic producer who wanted to set his mark on Star Trek.

What makes it a necessary. It's a story point. Sometimes cultures change, sometimes not by choice. That's what happened to the Romulans.

If they want to have something new and interesting, why don't create some new species instead of ruin one which have been an importamnt part of Star Trek since the start.

Who says they were ruined. Again, they were mustache twirling villains. They weren't very interesting. By destroying Romulus, they actually added something interesting to their development.

No, I'm not afraid och change as such.

Clear evidence points to the contrary.

But I don't like changes just for the sake of changing or bad changes.

It's a developing narrative. Things can and should change. Otherwise, things get stale and boring, much like a lot of Voyager.

Still they were an imporant part of Star Trek and destroying them the way they have done is only stupid.

But they're not destroyed. The situation has changed but there are still Romulans!

 

[Starflight]

I like Kes.

 

[XCV330]

Kes wasn't remotely interesting until Fury.

 

[Dar70]

The irony of you saying this while being a obsessed fan of Kes, is not lost on me.

Discovery can be argued, but Enterprise and Strange New Worlds perfectly aligned with what I think Pre-TOS could look like. Albeit with modern effects and budgets and production design.

Sometimes shit happens. Look at our own history and how many empires have risen and fallen over the millennia.

Besides, this all sounds like an amazing opportunity for storytelling and making the Romulans far more interesting.

And that's a bad thing? Seems to me that you're afraid of change.

Who really weren't that interesting once you got past the whole Vulcan connection. For the most part they were scheming, mustache twirling villains.

I agree of a lot of what you say EXCEPT ST: ENTERPRISE. I noticed you have mentioned your distaste a couple times for it. I remember when the show first came out people complained about the ship exteriors, interiors and theme song etc.. I liked the show for the most part at the time. The interiors I thought were well done and reminded me of a cramped submarine. Very industrial looking. They did manage to keep some buttons and switches etc.


They also did a good job of slightly updating the TOS interiors for in a mirror darkly and represented the look of TOS very well.

Its biggest flaw was the series finale of course
And there were a few things they messed up continuity wise. But overall. I really enjoyed the show and there are some really great episodes.

I do a admit they could have spent more time with certain characters. But it ended up becoming the ARCHER,TRIP AND T'POL show for the most part. Not that there is anything wrong with that..

 

[HotRod]

I noticed you have mentioned your distaste a couple times for it.

I can assure you I have never expressed a distaste for Enterprise.

 

[Starflight]

The difference between the NX-01 finding a new planet while flying at Warp 3 and the Enterprise-D finding a new planet while flying at Warp 8 is totally cosmetic, surely. In both series (barring the Xindi arc), the ship is just perpetually at some unknown point somewhere in space, and anything can happen.

Part of TNG's strength IMO was making a lot of aesthetic changes to distinguish itself, but not really changing anything about Star Trek. Most scripts from TOS and TNG could be swapped with minimal rewrites. Enterprise was wise to basically do the same thing - our ship looks like crap and we're ostensibly travelling slower, and we're "United Earth" or w/e rather than the Federation, but the storytelling model is basically the same.

The way Star Trek seems to work is that they can set a series anywhere and it really doesn't matter. A 22nd century story is often going to be virtually indistinguishable from a 25th century story. It just depends if you want things to look dull (22nd century), psychedelic and colourful (23rd), or like a 90s office (24th).

 

[Dukhat]

I still can’t get how low-effort the Enterprise characterisation is. Archer was even more horribly characterised than Janeway, the writers just really never had a handle on the character and neither did Bakula. I did kind of enjoy Vulcan of Nine and Engineer Bones (aka Tucker), but I’ve still absolutely no idea why Malcolm, Travis and Hoshi even exist as characters. What is interesting about them? They’re just big nothingburgers taking up space on the bridge. The creators really were running on fumes at this point.

No offence to ENT fans. I’m genuinely glad it’s more popular with the fans these days. Just not with this one sadly.

I think the main reason for all that was because production for ENT was rushed. UPN adamantly wanted VOY to end and have production started on ENT almost immediately. There was hardly any time to develop the characters past their generic series bible descriptions. It also didn't help that the writing made these characters out to be juveniles in adult bodies.

But I think the worst outcome was that almost all of the cast was very talented, but they were overshadowed by the show simply not being that great. Bakula, Trineer, Billingsley and Keating are good actors. I had never seen Linda Park or Anthony Montgomery before ENT so I can't comment on them past my feeling that they were less talented, but only because the show gave them extremely little to do despite the idea that both of them (a linguist and a space boomer) should have been the two most important people on that ship. And as for Jolene Blalock, I wouldn't say she's a great actor, but she did absolutely fantastic with what she was given. But the show was derivative. There were very few scripts that couldn't have been written for the show that just ended before it. It, like SNW now, was just trying to be TNG Jr. more than an actual honest-to-goodness prequel to TNG.