Is it time to put Star Trek to rest?

[Starflight]

Tangentially related to the discussion on the last page, but: people who rate (post-season-3) DS9 as their favourite show while simultaneously bashing NuTrek confuse me because they share a lot of the same storytelling tools and plot ideas, and tend to portray Starfleet in similar ways (in fact, DS9 probably goes further with it - Discovery afaik never had Starfleet fighting trench warfare and bleeding out in bomb craters while saying lines from 'nam movies, or Burnham poisoning entire planets and laughing about it).

I'm not trying to be snarky or have a go at people who enjoy DS9 and/or NuTrek, liking either or both is a perfectly valid subjective opinion, but it just bewilders me when people who rate DS9 highly complain NuTrek is too dark or anti-Trek or portrays Starfleet badly when you can find direct equivalents for all those things in DS9, sometimes even moreso.

 

[fireproof78]

Tangentially related to the discussion on the last page, but: people who rate (post-season-3) DS9 as their favourite show while simultaneously bashing NuTrek confuse me because they share a lot of the same storytelling tools and plot ideas, and tend to portray Starfleet in similar ways (in fact, DS9 probably goes further with it - Discovery afaik never had Starfleet fighting trench warfare and bleeding out in bomb craters while saying lines from 'nam movies, or Burnham poisoning entire planets and laughing about it).

I'm not trying to be snarky or have a go at people who enjoy DS9 and/or NuTrek, liking either or both is a perfectly valid subjective opinion, but it just bewilders me when people who rate DS9 highly complain NuTrek is too dark or anti-Trek or portrays Starfleet badly when you can find direct equivalents for all those things in DS9, sometimes even moreso.

Same here. I've rewatched several TOS episodes over the last year and the darker endings are prevalent there too.

Deep Space Nine went far darker at times with the heroes but that seems to be ignored all the time in favor of knocking down newer Trek. And I'm not saying newer Trek is perfect or hadn't had missteps or things I haven't watched due to lack of interest or such; certainly it has. But, I don't see anything out of step with past Trek, save for perhaps some of the characters are a lot more upfront with their flaws.

 

[CoveTom]

Sure, but that's Star Trek for you. TOS is very distinctly 1960s, TMP is totally the 1970s. The other TOS movies plus early TNG are very obviously 1980s, and the rest of TNG, its movies, DS9 and Voyager are clearly 1990s. It might take place in the future, but it's still a reflection of the time it was made in.

Granted, in the case of Enterprise, it was purposely creating a sort of "modern day" look for space opera, which was extremely common in the 2000s, as we had Stargate also trying to create a "typical sci-fi look" with contemporary technology as well as Nu BSG. It's kind of the appeal of 2000s sci-fi.

Yes and no.

I think TNG found the sweet spot. I think the displays, panels, etc. on TNG still look futuristic and sleek and hold up well because TNG started when computer displays were still relatively primitive and CRT TV's were difficult to film. TNG's solution with the Okudagrams done as backlit films/plexiglass worked very well and looked quite futuristic. Later, when they started integrating actual displays, I think it actually looks less so and makes it feel more dated. For example, seeing curved CRT displays on the bridge of the Defiant looks far less futuristic to me than what we saw on the TNG bridge.

One of the things that bugs me and feels "wrong" about the Picard recreation of the Enterprise-D bridge, as faithful as it was, was that everything was done with flat-panel displays and nothing quite matches what the original bridge set looked like as a result.

 

[FredH]

Doctor Who has definitely a hit point,

After all this time, surely they have many multiple Hit Dice?

 

[The Wormhole]

Kim. Chuckles and Neelix both had their moments.

Well, they were going to get rid of Harry Kim for the fourth season, that's why he got attacked by 8472 in Scorpion 1. Then People Magazine named Garrett Wang one of the Most Beautiful People on TV and UPN overruled that decision.

I think TNG found the sweet spot. I think the displays, panels, etc. on TNG still look futuristic and sleek and hold up well

Meh, LCARS looks laughably outdated to me these days.

 

[CoveTom]

Meh, LCARS looks laughably outdated to me these days.

Hard disagree.

 

[nightwind1]

Even TOS, TNG, Ds9 and the early seasons of Voyager have bad episodes, I won't deny it.

The difference is that the bad episodes were fewer than in the NuTrek series and movies when they were mostly bad.

Not to mention the characters and the actors. few good characters in series and movies after VOY and i don't know how they produce actors in those days.

Note that this isn't only about Star Trek. It's the same for all series and movies made after 2010.

Back in the days I watched a lot of series. Besides Star Trek it was NCIS, NCIS LA, NCIS New Orleans, CSI, CSI MIami, CSI New York, Stargate GG1, Stargate Atlantis and many more.

The only series I watch occasionally now is NCIS. Unfortunately the original characters are gone but they still come up with decent episodes. Besides from that, nothing!

The only series I actually have liked in recent years was Yellowstone. A pity that they messed it up in the last episodes.



I highly doubt that became any better.


When the alteranet universe takes over the scene and become the only thing produced, then I consider ity a mess-up.


maybe not a continuity problem but the totally unnecessary destruction of one of the iconic Star Trek species whic will leave a big hole in future plots.


depends on what you mean with "knowing". I do know a lot about how the series "progressed" and knowing that, I haven't found any reason to watch it again. I doubt that the characters became any more interesting and the best one was killed off.


They did mess up a lot of established Trek history and the sets and designs looked more like a prequel to Babylon 5 than TOS. I didn't like the sets and design, it felt wrong.

WRONG. But thanks for playing.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

LCARS still looks great I think. It’s very distinctive and hasn’t aged.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Note that this isn't only about Star Trek. It's the same for all series and movies made after 2010.

You and this stupid shit again. Old things are good. New things are bad.

It’s not that binary and It never was. Not even in ‘your day’, Abraham Simpson.

Have you any idea how ridiculous it is to encapsulate 15 years of global entertainment under a blanket statement like that?

I suppose not. It’s not your first rodeo.

Lots of great TV has been made since 2010. Lots of great movies. Give it a rest and stop making yourself look stupid.

 

[FredH]

Kirk (or whoever is the lead) not being a literal horn dog in half the episodes - instead being an intelligent and focused leader.

Like in actual Star Trek? Sure, let’s keep that going.

 

[FredH]

Actually, Enterprise generally fits quite nicely into canon. Plus, the sets and designs were some of the absolute best in the franchise.

That’s quite true. I remember a lot of online discussion back in the day boiling down to—

“Enterprise breaks canon!”
“No, it doesn’t. Look, here’s why.”
“Yes, but why does it break canon?!”
“Er, it doesn’t, didn’t you just see—“
“I hate so much how it hates canon!”
“…….”

And in some quarters that’s never ended.

 

[fireproof78]

That’s quite true. I remember a lot of online discussion back in the day boiling down to—

“Enterprise breaks canon!”
“No, it doesn’t. Look, here’s why.”
“Yes, but why does it break canon?!”
“Er, it doesn’t, didn’t you just see—“
“I hate so much how it hates canon!”
“…….”

And in some quarters that’s never ended.

Being angry is easier.

 

[Lynx]

To be honest, I have put Trek to rest. I’ve not bothered signing up again to P+ to watch the new season of SNW, the second season jumped the shark for me. I will likely check out SA when it arrives, but I’m just not excited as I would have been in the past for new Trek.

I guess I’m a little burnt out and checked out from Trek. But I feel that way about just about every other franchise I grew up with right now. So much content and I’m just not seeing much creative talent at the helm. We live in a world where “content” is king. They won’t let the old franchises die…and in some cases they need a mercy killing. I’m just glad Trek isn’t in as terrible a state as Dr Who or Star Wars. But it’s far from at its peak in my regretful opinion.

I still find Star Trek interesting. Therefore I continue to watch TOS, TNG, DS9 and the early VOY seasons.

I rather watch VOYs Cold Fire for the umpteenth time than waste time watcting the Ninja Turtle "Klingons" in DSC.

What I do find sad is that TrekLit is going down the drain. They seem to kill off or ruin the characters from TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY in order to use all the resources on books from later Trek which I'm totally uninterested in.

Watch it and find out. Seasons 3 and 4 are better than any season of Voyager, and dare I say, better than many of the seasons of TNG and DS9. At least in my opinion.

Honestly, watching ENT is not my top priority right now. If I should watch any newer Trek, then it will be SNW, despite rumors of things going wrong with this series in later seasons.

But that hasn't been the case in almost 10 years.

At least some good news!

It added to the story. Just as in real life, Empire's will fall. How does it leave a hope? If anything it presents further opportunities to tell stories about the fall of the Romulan Star Empire. Just because you lack the creativity to see the potential in storytelling, doesn't mean some writer can't craft an interesting story involving Romulans.

I see the destruction of one of the most important species in Star Trek as nothing but destructive.
I don't lack creativity but I don't see any potential in what's been done to the Romulans.

Again, you've watched 5 episodes out of 98. Plus the 5 you watched were from when the series was still finding its legs. Watching and experiencing a show is a far different and better experience than simply reading pages of Memory Alpha.

Memory Alpha and Memory Beta have become my best friends. Without them, I may have spent money on series and books which only had made me very disappointed.

I do owe Memory Beta a lot for not buying the book Second Self where one of my favorite characters is destroyed!

Back then, I did find ENT bland and boring, not only the stories but most of all the characters. I have my doubts that they became better later on.

Not really. The show was never going to look as dated as TOS, but they did an excellent job of creating an era that looked like it could be our future, while incorporating a great many things that did feel like primitive versions of things seen earlier in the franchise. There has yet to be an Engine Room set made that looks half as good as the one made for the NX-01.

I can understand that they couldn't or wouldn't come up with a set and design which looked like TOS. But why then bother to make a pre-TOS series at all? Wouldn't it have been better if they had continued in the 24th century?

Kim. Chuckles and Neelix both had their moments.

All the season 1-3 Voyager characters were good!

Bad is bad. That there's more content doesn't make it less bad or dark or whatever.


But, I know we differ because I love many of her newer Trek characters too and that goes a long way for me.

Back in the day I watched more too. Now I don't. Not for lack of interest in content but as I get older TV has less appeal.

So, I don't find that a referendum on content and just not a priority. But, that's me.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I do understand that people might develop different taste as the years pass by.

It's hard to describe but I have this special........feeling when it comes to entertainment such as TV series, some little person inside my head which says: "This is great", "This is good", "This is interesting" or "This can become good".

Unfortunately, I have had much less of this in recent years.

I remember when I first watched VOY, NCIS, CSI NY and immediately liked all the charcters from the start.

I also remember series like TNG, and DS9 when wasn't that impressed after whatching the first episode but still thought that they had something, sort of "It can become good, I'll continue to watch". And it did.

Nowadays, I can watch four, five episodes and then i give up. I've tried a lot of different series but they don't have what I want. NCIS Hawaii, for example, downright horrible.

It's even worse with music. It has been so commercial that I can't stand it.
I still find good music but I have to dig deep to find it.

WRONG. But thanks for playing.

Huh?

You and this stupid shit again. Old things are good. New things are bad.

It’s not that binary and It never was. Not even in ‘your day’, Abraham Simpson.

Have you any idea how ridiculous it is to encapsulate 15 years of global entertainment under a blanket statement like that?

I suppose not. It’s not your first rodeo.

Lots of great TV has been made since 2010. Lots of great movies. Give it a rest and stop making yourself look stupid.

When someone lacks arguments and ideas and don't have the skill to participate in a cordial debate, then the insults and personal attacks comes.

If you're trying to prove me wrong, then you're doing a bad job.

If I think anything is wrong, then I'll stand for it and I won't change my mind because someone insults me, rather the opposite.

As I wrote above, I do have a certain feeling when it comes to what I like and not, something which says "this is good".

I've tried a lot of series and movies in recent years. I actually liked Yellowstone even if it was a bit too dark for my taste sometimes and they messed it up in the last episodes. But NCIS Hawaii was downrigt horrible.

 

[fireproof78]

still find Star Trek interesting. Therefore I continue to watch TOS, TNG, DS9 and the early VOY seasons.

So do I as time allows. And SNW and Discovery.

remember series like TNG, and DS9 when wasn't that impressed after whatching the first episode but still thought that they had something, sort of "It can become good, I'll continue to watch". And it did.

I never had that. Bad was bad and I moved on with many shows, including TNG. I watched some of Season 7 with friends who were bigger TNG fans than I.

I don't have this drive towards Entertainment as others do and I'll own it. But the double standard applied to newer media is bizarre to me.

 

[HotRod]

But why then bother to make a pre-TOS series at all?

Because it was an interesting time period that had not been done before.

Wouldn't it have been better if they had continued in the 24th century?

By the time Voyager ended, there had been over 500 episodes set in the late 24th century. It had grown stale.

 

[CoveTom]

Watch it and find out. Seasons 3 and 4 are better than any season of Voyager, and dare I say, better than many of the seasons of TNG and DS9. At least in my opinion.

Again, you've watched 5 episodes out of 98. Plus the 5 you watched were from when the series was still finding its legs. Watching and experiencing a show is a far different and better experience than simply reading pages of Memory Alpha.

I've seen four complete episodes of Enterprise. I can tell you exactly which ones they are. I saw "Broken Bow" the night it originally aired. I've seen "Regeneration." I've seen "Dead Stop." And, yes, I've seen "These Are The Voyages..." I've also seen a number of clips and portions of episodes on YouTube over the years.

Now, you can say those aren't the best episodes or the most representative of what Enterprise was or became. And that's probably true. I've heard people talk about how Manny Coto improved the show and how good season 4 was (save for the finale, of course).

But here's the thing. What I've seen of Enterprise just never grabbed me. The characters, the setting, the whole premise of the show, none of it interested me in the slightest. And so I just don't see the point in slogging through the series to see if perhaps it at some point became better. If a show can't grab my attention after four episodes, I'm probably not going to invest more time into it than that.

 

[fireproof78]

If a show can't grab my attention after four episodes, I'm probably not going to invest more time into it than that.

Logical. Flawlessly logical.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Even TOS, TNG, Ds9 and the early seasons of Voyager have bad episodes, I won't deny it.

The difference is that the bad episodes were fewer than in the NuTrek series and movies when they were mostly bad.

Not to mention the characters and the actors. few good characters in series and movies after VOY and i don't know how they produce actors in those days.

Note that this isn't only about Star Trek. It's the same for all series and movies made after 2010.

Back in the days I watched a lot of series. Besides Star Trek it was NCIS, NCIS LA, NCIS New Orleans, CSI, CSI MIami, CSI New York, Stargate GG1, Stargate Atlantis and many more.

The only series I watch occasionally now is NCIS. Unfortunately the original characters are gone but they still come up with decent episodes. Besides from that, nothing!

The only series I actually have liked in recent years was Yellowstone. A pity that they messed it up in the last episodes.



I highly doubt that became any better.


When the alteranet universe takes over the scene and become the only thing produced, then I consider ity a mess-up.


maybe not a continuity problem but the totally unnecessary destruction of one of the iconic Star Trek species whic will leave a big hole in future plots.


depends on what you mean with "knowing". I do know a lot about how the series "progressed" and knowing that, I haven't found any reason to watch it again. I doubt that the characters became any more interesting and the best one was killed off.


They did mess up a lot of established Trek history and the sets and designs looked more like a prequel to Babylon 5 than TOS. I didn't like the sets and design, it felt wrong.

Seriously the way you carry on, it's like your life ended in 2005. What a joyless and colourless way to live. Life is too short to be this close-minded.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I've seen four complete episodes of Enterprise. I can tell you exactly which ones they are. I saw "Broken Bow" the night it originally aired. I've seen "Regeneration." I've seen "Dead Stop." And, yes, I've seen "These Are The Voyages..." I've also seen a number of clips and portions of episodes on YouTube over the years.

Now, you can say those aren't the best episodes or the most representative of what Enterprise was or became. And that's probably true. I've heard people talk about how Manny Coto improved the show and how good season 4 was (save for the finale, of course).

But here's the thing. What I've seen of Enterprise just never grabbed me. The characters, the setting, the whole premise of the show, none of it interested me in the slightest. And so I just don't see the point in slogging through the series to see if perhaps it at some point became better. If a show can't grab my attention after four episodes, I'm probably not going to invest more time into it than that.

My problem with Enterprise was how bland the majority of the characters are. Bakula is a great actor but was miscast for the role of Archer. The character should have been what we got with Tucker. The blandness makes it hard to be interested even when they're spending a season trying to save earth from destruction.

 

[FredH]

Because it was an interesting time period that had not been done before.

By the time Voyager ended, there had been over 500 episodes set in the late 24th century. It had grown stale.

That’s the show, not the time period. Contemporary Earth has thousands and thousands of separate shows and series about it, any one of which can and eventually probably does grow stale. (Perhaps let’s tighten that down to: the modern-day U.S. military has lots and lots of productions about its fictional and nonfictional members, which can likewise grow stale.). It’s not down to the era, it’s the individual production.