Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

[Dar70]

I saw a similar discussion in the Superman thread and I realized that growing up with Batman and Superman made me a lot easier on continuity obsession than others. I welcome variety in my storytelling, not limitations.

Stuff like Superman, Batman, Bond, etc get constant reboots. I personally would have really like a complete Reboot of Trek. No alternate realities or anything like that. Just a clean remake/reboot. Recast everyone. Rewrite stories, make new ones, add new characters, make Spock female and Kirk a middle aged Italian. Whatever.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Zefram Cochrane in FC was a lot taller (and older-looking) than he was in TOS. The creators have been playing loose with the different levels of continuity for many decades.

How about all of Voyager being incompatible with TOS and the classic movies? The former went to the rim of the galaxy TWICE, and the centre TWICE (if you include TAS) but Voyager made crossing the galaxy take 75 years in a supposedly more advanced and much faster ship.

But the uniforms were accurate when they crossed over with Star Trek VI, so all is forgiven I guess.

 

[Dar70]

Irrelevant.

It makes no sense and was laughably stupid in the tense climax of the film. It deserves mocking and the crew should be ashamed.

It is relevant since it was the basis of my argument. The current Turbolift interior is the most insane production decision I have ever seen in any live action Trek. I just re-watched that scene from nemesis and it's not that bad at all.

 

[Daedalus]

Interesting takes. I don't think changing actors is the issue here, at least it hasn't been a problem for me.

Anyway, Glenn Corbett's version of Cochrane reminded me a little of Trip Tucker. A little too much..the old dog.

 

[Dar70]

Would Tom Hanks have nade a closer physical match to Glenn Corbett? Sure. But we got James Cromwell and in his three appearances in the franchise he works. Very well. And memorably.

James Cromwell did a fine job.

 

[fireproof78]

How about all of Voyager being incompatible with TOS and the classic movies? The former went to the rim of the galaxy TWICE, and the centre TWICE (if you include TAS) but Voyager made crossing the galaxy take 75 years in a supposedly more advanced and much faster ship.

But the uniforms were accurate when they crossed over with Star Trek VI, so all is forgiven I guess.

If you get the uniforms right you can get away with anything.

 

[fireproof78]

It is relevant since it was the basis of my argument. The current Turbolift interior is the most insane production decision I have ever seen in any live action Trek. I just re-watched that scene from nemesis and it's not that bad at all.

I found it immersion breaking in the theater.

Yes, it is that bad.

That you found something more insane doesn't excuse the sloppiness of this work nor somehow make it less egregious. It's stupid action for the sake of it.

That's my point.

 

[Dar70]

How about all of Voyager being incompatible with TOS and the classic movies? The former went to the rim of the galaxy TWICE, and the centre TWICE (if you include TAS) but Voyager made crossing the galaxy take 75 years in a supposedly more advanced and much faster ship.

But the uniforms were accurate when they crossed over with Star Trek VI, so all is forgiven I guess.

This is true and it is more of an error than intentional rewrite. No one is saying that errors don't happen in Trek. It's littered with them. Also the rim of the Galaxy is how far from where Voyager was. What side of the rim was the Enterprise at? How many light years etc. who knows? So it's all a bit murky.

 

[Dar70]

I found it immersion breaking in the theater.

Yes, it is that bad.

That you found something more insane doesn't excuse the sloppiness of this work nor somehow make it less egregious. It's stupid action for the sake of it.

That's my point.

No i have to disagree.

 

[eschaton]

The problems with Turnabout Intruder were baked into the story at the script level. The problematic elements of Code of Honor could have been solved simply casting a more diverse guest cast

The ironic thing is the original writer wanted TNG to use an all-Asian cast, not a black cast, for the planet, and she was so miffed she basically wrote the same script all over again for Stargate SG-1.

Seems like Katharyn Powers really had a fetish for stories about white women being sexually brutalized by eastern-coded barbarians.

 

[Yistaan]

But never in the History of all the Trek shows has there been retconning on the level we have seen with SNW and Disco.

I'm going to say that's not true. Almost everything retconned in SNW/Disco has been purely cosmetic (starship interior design, etc.and even THEN there's wiggle room for some kind of bizarre retro-refit come 2265, in fact the IDW comics, albeit non-canon, have already outright given this explanation)

TAS had the Enterprise fly to the center of the galaxy. ST5 as well. TOS had dialogue saying the Enterprise could do 1,000 light years in 12 hours (That Which Survives).

Come TNG to VOY, suddenly Starfleet can't even get to another quadrant in the same galaxy without a wormhole. 70,000 light years now takes 70 years in Voyager, instead of the month it would take under TOS dialogue. The idea that the center of the galaxy was reachable in a reasonable timeframe, established in both TAS and ST5 AND corroborated by speed dialogue mentioned in TOS, was ignored entirely.

That's FAR worse than anything SNW/Disco has done, which has relegated their retcons to cosmetic appearances and not outright plot contradictions.

 

[eschaton]

You are trying hard to justify... but your examples are not the same. The Maltese falcon is one story. It doesn't have the history of a shared universe that Star Trek has. Yes there have been times when they retconned small things like Janet Lester. But never in the History of all the Trek shows has there been retconning on the level we have seen with SNW and Disco.

SNW should have been its own show. But it continues to mine TOS stories, characters and just plain retcons them. There have also been some STRANGE decisions in both Kurtzman shows. Things im surprised that so many old time Trek fans dismiss or make excuses for.

I don't think many, even Fans like myself except a perfect continuity to Trek or the occasional minor Retcon. Most shows are not perfect in this regard. But to just continually rewrite past scenarios amd hiding it by mis-interpreting past events is kinda disrespectful to the original shows writers in my opinion.

They could have done so much better with this show.

The one area I'll agree with you is I'm unhappy with how last season they retconned the Eugenics Wars from the 1990s to the mid 21st century due to timey-wimey shenanigans. Goldsman seems to believe for some reason that Star Trek can only be an optimistic view of the future if it's our future, so anything that the official Star Trek timeline established which no longer works with the present day must be "fixed." I prefer Star Trek if it takes place in an alternate universe which began to diverge from ours in the mid 1960s. I think it's way too literal to think Trek only works if we can see it as our actual future in the making.

I'm also not a fan of the new Gorn, as I've said elsewhere, because they took a complicated, layered antagonist and turned them into mindless xenomorph clones - seemingly just because they thought Alien was cool.

The problem isn't retcons, it's stupid retcons. Things which either lack any narrative purpose, or actually make the setting dumber.

 

[Yistaan]

I'm also not a fan of the new Gorn, as I've said elsewhere, because they took a complicated, layered antagonist and turned them into mindless xenomorph clones - seemingly just because they thought Alien was cool.

The problem isn't retcons, it's stupid retcons. Things which either lack any narrative purpose, or actually make the setting dumber.

It DOES seem strange that Kirk doesn't recognize the Gorn in Arena now, this hinges on him knowing absolutely nothing about Scotty's service history (whose whole ship was destroyed by the Gorn), him knowing absolutely nothing about the woman who has a massive crush on him (as La'an's whole early life has been influenced by fear of the Gorn) and nothing about the Fed tensions with the Gorn (which occurred when he was literally the youngest first officer in Starfleet on the Farragut) and so on. While none of this is impossible, it's also extremely improbable.

Another thing is that the Gorn doesn't immediately infect Kirk with Gorn eggs to win the fight and be done with it. Maybe the Metrons told the Gorn this was too much of an unfair advantage and forbid this action, but that also is highly improbable in context of the Metrons seemingly allowing both combatants to do everything in their power to win.

 

[Dar70]

The one area I'll agree with you is I'm unhappy with how last season they retconned the Eugenics Wars from the 1990s to the mid 21st century due to timey-wimey shenanigans. Goldsman seems to believe for some reason that Star Trek can only be an optimistic view of the future if it's our future, so anything that the official Star Trek timeline established which no longer works with the present day must be "fixed." I prefer Star Trek if it takes place in an alternate universe which began to diverge from ours in the mid 1960s. I think it's way too literal to think Trek only works if we can see it as our actual future in the making.

I'm also not a fan of the new Gorn, as I've said elsewhere, because they took a complicated, layered antagonist and turned them into mindless xenomorph clones - seemingly just because they thought Alien was cool.

The problem isn't retcons, it's stupid retcons. Things which either lack any narrative purpose, or actually make the setting dumber.

I always found it odd as well. Goldsman wasn't the first to suggest past events need to be changed to reflect our actual history. Which is completely silly imo.

As I said before it's the heavy retconning that these shows have done that irritates me. Especially when they are unwilling to admit they are doing it.

 

[eschaton]

I always found it odd as well. Goldsman wasn't the first to suggest past events need to be changed to reflect our actual history. Which is completely silly imo.

As I said before it's the heavy retconning that these shows have done that irritates me. Especially when they are unwilling to admit they are doing it.

I'll say though that I don't mind how Spock/Chapel has been retconned. Chapel was awful in TOS (something even Majel agreed with) with how she pined after Spock, which was yet another sign of the generally terrible, sexist writing of the TOS era. I think it works much, much better to have past romantic tension between them - something Spock affirmatively and totally "gets over" at some point, but Chapel (I guess) comes to regret her decision to pick Korby.

 

[Yistaan]

Leila: I love you. I said that six years ago, and I can't seem to stop repeating myself. On Earth, you couldn't give anything of yourself. You couldn't even put your arms around me. We couldn't have anything together there. We couldn't have anything together anyplace else. We're happy here. (crying) I can't lose you now, Mister Spock. I can't.

Spock: I have a responsibility to this ship, to that man on the Bridge. I am what I am, Leila, and if there are self-made purgatories, then we all have to live in them. Mine can be no worse than someone else's.

Kirk (suddenly enters): Except I was hanging around the Enterprise at that time, and from what I heard back then Spock's just making excuses now. Spock wouldn't date you 6 years ago because he preferred Christine Chapel over you!!!

Leila:

 

[Dar70]

I'm going to say that's not true. Almost everything retconned in SNW/Disco has been purely cosmetic (starship interior design, etc.and even THEN there's wiggle room for some kind of bizarre retro-refit come 2265, in fact the IDW comics, albeit non-canon, have already outright given this explanation)

TAS had the Enterprise fly to the center of the galaxy. ST5 as well. TOS had dialogue saying the Enterprise could do 1,000 light years in 12 hours (That Which Survives).

Come TNG to VOY, suddenly Starfleet can't even get to another quadrant in the same galaxy without a wormhole. 70,000 light years now takes 70 years in Voyager, instead of the month it would take under TOS dialogue. The idea that the center of the galaxy was reachable in a reasonable timeframe, established in both TAS and ST5 AND corroborated by speed dialogue mentioned in TOS, was ignored entirely.

That's FAR worse than anything SNW/Disco has done, which has relegated their retcons to cosmetic appearances and not outright plot contradictions.

The Gorn, chapel/spcok, Kirk knowing Pike more than just one meeting ...need i go on..?

 

[fireproof78]

The Gorn, chapel/spcok, Kirk knowing Pike more than just one meeting with Pike...need i go on..?

Yes.

Because I don't see the issues with those, other than maybe the Gorn.

 

[Campe]

The Gorn? Okay, I can grant that they've made a change that even though I'm fine with it, I can understand why someone needs an explanation.
Chapel/Spock? Whatever. Adds some texture to their relationship. Nowhere does TOS state explicitly Spock and Christine were not in a relationship.
Pike/Kirk? The line from "The Menagerie" leaves a lot of wiggle room. The exchange is:

MENDEZ: You ever met Chris Pike?
KIRK: We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
MENDEZ: About your age. Big, handsome man, vital, active.
KIRK: I took over the Enterprise from him. Spock served with him for several years.

Kirk has three thoughts in two lines, the first two split up by Mendez. There is no reason why Thought 1 ("We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.") and Thought 2 ("I took over the Enterprise from him.") are connected. I admit, I used to believe they were connected, but I am willing to be flexible enough in my interpretation of the lines to believe they are separate thoughts. Again, Pike and Kirk actually meeting more than once adds texture.

 

[Yistaan]

The Gorn, chapel/spcok, Kirk knowing Pike more than just one meeting ...need i go on..?

What fireproof said, what SNW is doing is no worse than Obi-Wan seemingly not recognizing the droids or Artoo seemingly not recognizing Yoda or Vader building Threepio and so on. The type of explanations developed for SW prequels so far have been enough for Trek.

Prequels are nothing new. They've been around throughout fiction. For example, Watson doesn't recognize Moriarty in the Final Problem but is familiar with him in the prequel the Valley of Fear. No explanation has ever been provided, other than Watson apparently having a faulty memory. At least SNW writers take a cursory glance at the relevant TOS episodes and write to force-fit their prequels, which is more than Sir Arthur Conan Doyle apparently did.