Star Trek: Generations at 30

[Qonundrum]

Before tomorrow's viewing of it:

Loved the lighting or lack of it. Lighting was there, but it was more atmospheric and not merely "dark". External light sources like stars was inspired. @Turtletrekker said it already, the 7-year-old TV sets were knackered sets and every imperfection would show, hence the subdued interior lighting.

GREAT soundtrack and direction.

Not since TWOK was mortality a major plot point, and GEN does some of it better.

Soran and Picard have a great scene together, which hits harder if you see the movie a second time. It's a great "show vs tell" clue that Soran is also of the same species Guinan is, for being able to perceive time and the timeline in outsider-looking-in ways.

Loved the 1701-D crash. Not since Blake's 7 was there something approaching a good spaceship crash, though B7 had the better underlying plot reason for it to crash. Could have sworn that the "D"'s demise was longer in the theater, with a mid-stratosphere angle. Not as good as the 1701's destruction in Star Trek III, but it's iconic in its own right. Both are.

Kirk's death, on screen, was as pointless as his being there and was pointless as his on-screen death. Come to think of it, Kirk's Nexus retirement fantasy is even odder than Picard's. On the plus side, Kirk dies alone (see Star trek V for that.)

Never cared for Guinan's presence, shoehorned in and for the sake of something something Soran something Chekov something an insane amount of candles that the ship's suppression system should have surely snuffed out.

The comedy didn't gel, though Data early on was okay.

Glass isn't transparent aluminum.

Soran was made too sympathetic instead of being just a freakin' villain. Deleted scenes reveal Soran closer to where he needed to be in order for audiences to loathe him. Outright villain, or at least single-purpose scientific amorality.

Pretend the rocket is capable of doing warp 9 and it works, up to a point.


Ultimately, this should have been solely a TNG film and without many vague plot points or plot holes. There is a great film in this that also fits Q's description of what awaits the crew out there, but it doesn't quite get there. (Heck, none of the TNG flicks had, but GEN comes closest.)

 

[Tallguy]

External light sources like stars was inspired.

Truly!

Soran was made too sympathetic instead of being just a freakin' villain.

I think he was wonderfully sympathetic. It almost made you miss that he was willing to destroy entire planets. Being Malcolm McDowell kind of works against this.

 

[tomalak301]

Yes, you heard right. Berman also was told by Roddenberry not to watch TOS but Berman already did and had a basic idea about Star Trek.
Roddenberry also didn't want any of the classic TOS aliens to show up in TNG, that's why Andorians and Tellarites didnt show up until ENT!

I still think we haven't seen enough of the Tellerites in the franchise, even though I think we saw a few in Discovery.

 

[suarezguy]

I think it's good that, even with Worf being in the crew, we saw the Klingons pretty rarely in TNG, then some of the amount and type of appearances they had in Deep Space Nine already felt overly self-indulgent, think it would be worse if we had had that with Vulcans, Andorians or other original series aliens in TNG.

 

[Tallguy]

I still think we haven't seen enough of the Tellerites in the franchise, even though I think we saw a few in Discovery.

Two of them are major characters in Prodigy.

 

[tomalak301]

Two of them are major characters in Prodigy.

And that was good. It's probably easier (and cheaper) to do tellerites in animated form.

 

[Uxi]

I loved the last season of Enterprise for including the Tellarites and Andorians. TNG would have been better to include them though the technology wasn't quite there yet for the antenna, etc that we saw with Shran.

Avoiding the Klingons in TNG could have avoided the retcons and Worf's honor schtick that was completely absent from the vile TOS Klingons.

As far as Generations, I like JTVFX did a bunch of Duras faction ships fighting the Ent-D, including a Vor'cha and at least 3 BoP, which would have made more sense and been a larger "movie scale" threat and more plausible perhaps.

 

[Tallguy]

As far as Generations, I like JTVFX did a bunch of Duras faction ships fighting the Ent-D, including a Vor'cha and at least 3 BoP, which would have made more sense and been a larger "movie scale" threat and more plausible perhaps.

Except that even Picard notes that the Durases should be clearly outmatched save for their vile underhanded tricks. (He uses the F word so I won't repeat it here.)

 

[NCC-73515]

New effect shots with a vor'cha as nicely detailed in closeup dramatic views like they showed the D would've been amazing!

 

[Dukhat]

I'm not sure the Vor'cha was detailed enough for the big screen. But they could have built a new Klingon battle cruiser for the Duras sisters, but elected to use the BoP because they could then use the BoP explosion stock footage from the previous film. Because they thought we were all idiots and wouldn't notice.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I'm not sure the Vor'cha was detailed enough for the big screen. But they could have built a new Klingon battle cruiser for the Duras sisters, but elected to use the BoP because they could then use the BoP explosion stock footage from the previous film. Because they thought we were all idiots and wouldn't notice.

Ayup.

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[DonIago]

Ayup.

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Reusing a 'hero ship' climax explosion in two consecutive films is pretty glaring though. Even when I saw it in the theater the first time my emotions went from 'Fuck yeah; here comes awesome explosion!' to 'WTF???!!!???' It compromised my opinon of the film overall.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Reusing a 'hero ship' climax explosion in two consecutive films is pretty glaring though. Even when I saw it in the theater the first time my emotions went from 'Fuck yeah; here comes awesome explosion!' to 'WTF???!!!???' It compromised my opinon of the film overall.

Agreed on all points. I realized that it was a reused shot immediately.

 

[Tosk]

I still can't believe they didn't even bother to mirror the shot. It wouldn't have been much, but it'd have been something.

 

[Lord Garth]

I had a mixed opinion of Generations when the movie came out, and I still do, but weirds me out that it's been 30 years.

 

[Tallguy]

I'm not sure the Vor'cha was detailed enough for the big screen. But they could have built a new Klingon battle cruiser for the Duras sisters, but elected to use the BoP because they could then use the BoP explosion stock footage from the previous film. Because they thought we were all idiots and wouldn't notice.

Or it was because they had an existing movie quality ILM model that made sense for the era (to say nothing of the Duras' status). Oh, and is one of the most popular Star Trek ships of all time (for some reason). I would think would be a consequential boost to the budget.

I wonder what percentage of ticket paying viewers watched Generations and did actually notice. Everybody on this board, sure. But we're the kinds of people who talk about a moderately successful space movie 30 years after the fact. Other than us, who?

I would think the idiots are the people who didn't realize that all of the Enterprise (and Klingon) footage for the first forty-five minutes (!) of The Wrath of Khan was used in two consecutive films. Including two fairly big set pieces. (People hate that cheap movie, right?)

 

[Dukhat]

Or it was because they had an existing movie quality ILM model that made sense for the era (to say nothing of the Duras' status). Oh, and is one of the most popular Star Trek ships of all time (for some reason). I would think would be a consequential boost to the budget.

The problem with this movie quality ILM model was that it was a puny BoP that took down the hero Enterprise-D after 7 years of watching it on TNG. It was an ignominious way for the ship to have been destroyed, all so that they could reuse stock footage from the last film.

I wonder what percentage of ticket paying viewers watched Generations and did actually notice. Everybody on this board, sure. But we're the kinds of people who talk about a moderately successful space movie 30 years after the fact. Other than us, who?

I'm sure the non-Trek fans who went to see the movie (if there were any) didn't know or give a shit about them reusing stock footage. But since stock footage reuse has been a staple of Star Trek since TOS (and its overuse in TNG made the show look cheap IMHO), it just comes with the territory. The specific example of the BoP explosion is unique however, because it was used in the previous film and was still stuck in people's heads. If they didn't want to spend money building a new filming model, they could have at least made a new explosion sequence that wasn't glaringly obvious that it came from the previous movie.

I would think the idiots are the people who didn't realize that all of the Enterprise (and Klingon) footage for the first forty-five minutes (!) of The Wrath of Khan was used in two consecutive films. Including two fairly big set pieces. (People hate that cheap movie, right?)

Sorry, but one has nothing to do with the other. They were trying to pretend that TMP never existed. And the fact that so much footage could be reused was the prime motivating factor for them to make TWOK in the first place because the cost savings were so substantial. So using 45 minutes of stock footage of the Enterprise was a completely different animal than using a five-second shot of stock footage of a BoP exploding because they were too cheap to make a new model.

 

[Tallguy]

The problem with this movie quality ILM model was that it was a puny BoP that took down the hero Enterprise-D after 7 years of watching it on TNG. It was an ignominious way for the ship to have been destroyed, all so that they could reuse stock footage from the last film.

You think the writing process went something like this?
Studio: "We need the Duras sisters to destroy the Enterprise."
Writers: "Awesome. They will have the COOLEST new Klingon ship we can come up with. Something that can really stand up to the Enterprise."
"Oh, sure. Get Eaves and Sternbach in here. Call ILM. Get them to work right now."
"So there is going to be this big space fight."
"Excellent. Big screen spectacle."
"They're going to go at it, the Enterprise is in real trouble. She's going to win, but be mortally wounded."
"Right right right. Wait, what happens when the good guys win?"
"We're going to BLOW UP THE DURAS' SHIP."
"Ohhhhh, hold your horses golden boys. Blow up a ship? Like... Explode?"
"Umm... Yeah."
"Nope. Can't do it. Call everybody and tell them we can't use a new ship. We need to use a Bird of Prey."
"What? WHY?"
"Because we have stock footage!"
"Of... Of the Bird of Prey fighting the Enterprise? That was all on TV!"
"Oh no. We can have the space battle. Film all new stuff. It'll be great."
"But... So you mean...?"
"The EXPLOSION! Grab the explosion from Star Trek VI! Whooo boy! The SAVINGS! Why for that money we can... Hey, did you know there was a SAILING ship called ENTERPRISE? Get someone to scout locations!"

So using 45 miuntes of stock footage of the Enterprise was a completely different animal than using a five-second shot of stock footage of a BoP exploding because they were too cheap to make a new model.

Which do you think was more expensive? Building a new screen quality model (built by ILM) or filming a new explosion?

To say nothing of: Taking out the Enterprise with a Bird of Prey is certainly not without precedent.

 

[Dukhat]

You think the writing process went something like this?
Studio: "We need the Duras sisters to destroy the Enterprise."
Writers: "Awesome. They will have the COOLEST new Klingon ship we can come up with. Something that can really stand up to the Enterprise."
"Oh, sure. Get Eaves and Sternbach in here. Call ILM. Get them to work right now."
"So there is going to be this big space fight."
"Excellent. Big screen spectacle."
"They're going to go at it, the Enterprise is in real trouble. She's going to win, but be mortally wounded."
"Right right right. Wait, what happens when the good guys win?"
"We're going to BLOW UP THE DURAS' SHIP."
"Ohhhhh, hold your horses golden boys. Blow up a ship? Like... Explode?"
"Umm... Yeah."
"Nope. Can't do it. Call everybody and tell them we can't use a new ship. We need to use a Bird of Prey."
"What? WHY?"
"Because we have stock footage!"
"Of... Of the Bird of Prey fighting the Enterprise? That was all on TV!"
"Oh no. We can have the space battle. Film all new stuff. It'll be great."
"But... So you mean...?"
"The EXPLOSION! Grab the explosion from Star Trek VI! Whooo boy! The SAVINGS! Why for that money we can... Hey, did you know there was a SAILING ship called ENTERPRISE? Get someone to scout locations!"

See my response below.

Which do you think was more expensive? Building a new screen quality model (built by ILM) or filming a new explosion?

When you consider that huge amounts of budget money was wasted with such things as the completely unnecessary holodeck scene for Worf's promotion (which had nothing to do with the plot of the story), the over-the-top stellar cartography set which was also completely unnecessary and was just made for some 'kewlness' factor, and the new uniforms they made which ultimately went unused...yeah, they could have had plenty of money to build a new ship.

And yes, I believe 100% that the reason they used the BoP model was so that they could reuse that stock footage.

To say nothing of: Taking out the Enterprise with a Bird of Prey is certainly not without precedent.

Sure, let's do exactly what we did in a previous movie. How original.

 

[Lord Garth]

I was (and am) a pretty huge fan of the TOS Movies. So huge, I wore out all the VHS tapes I had of them back in the '90s. I'd seen TUC tons of times, by the time I went to see GEN. I didn't care when I saw the TUC Bird-of-Prey blow up again. Why? Because I was also just as much of a Back to the Future Fan. And we saw lightning strike the Clock Tower in all three films.

I didn't think anything of the stock footage. I just accepted it as a thing. It was fun spotting it, and other stock footage in general, too. That doesn't mean anyone is wrong to point out they should've had new footage, just giving my perspective.

The only time it annoyed me was during DS9's "What You Leave Behind". It wasn't just "a shot here, a shot there," it was all over the place. They must've run out of budget by the end.