Star Trek: Generations at 30

[DonIago]

I'm sure it's a feelings thing. I didn't think the "nooks and crannies" of the battle in Star Trek VI were well addressed. "How does Uhura (brilliant officer though she is) solve the problem of how to torpedo a cloaked ship when the best minds of the Federation could not?" "Why did this technology of firing when cloaked ever appear again?" Also, I think making a heat signature is a very 20th-century problem, isn't it? (This is the problem with not-military geniuses trying to write military geniuses. See also The Picard Maneuver.)

OTOH, I was fine with the battle in GEN. The rules were "The Klingons have sabotaged the Enterprise making her essentially defenseless until Data figures out how to turn the tables." Could they / should they have plugged some of the holes like "Hey at least shoot back" or "Show us why changing the shield modulation didn't work"? Sure. But after they teched the tech that would still have been the answer. (This is probably the same response I should have to TUC.)

It's Jack Dawson and the door. He could not get on the door with Rose. Because that's the story. If the prop maker made the door too big that doesn't mean Jack could have lived it means that the door needed to be smaller.

As for how a Bird of Prey could take out the Enterprise? That's explicit: They cheated. The Enterprise crew is even smug about how impregnable they are until it happens.

Why not just shoot a ship that's de-cloaking when it's shooting at you? That's been "hard to do" since Balance of Terror. Should it be? I don't know. It's a Star Trek rule. (In TUC they react like "can't fire when cloaked" is some physical law of cloaking tech. In Balance of Terror it was just an energy problem.) They take out the Klingons because Data figures out where the stock footage is I mean figures out how to get them to de-cloak when they aren't in a position to fire.

I was too busy wondering why the 50- and 60-year-olds were getting in a fistfight over a missile when they had time/space travel that would have made Time Lords jealous. Oh, and why didn't Kirk and Picard feel like they were wrapped in joy?

Also why nobody asked a shipload of refugees close to Earth WHY they were refugees? "Well, there was this thing called THE BORG..."

THESE are the things that bother me about GEN.

I'll start off by saying you're misremembering the 'battle' in GEN.

Data doesn't figure out how to penetrate the cloak, he figures out how to engage the cloak, which forces the BoP to divert energy from shields (or whatever). To that point the BoP isn't cloaked, which is why so many people find it so ludicrous that the E-D didn't simply blow them out of the stars once they opened fire, whether or not the E-D's shields were effective at the time.

Otherwise:
-I agree that it's odd that Uhura's the one who comes up with the idea in TUC.
-I think TUC itself establishes why this tech doesn't appear again, at least not that we've seen: because Our Heroes developed and successfully implemented a way to defeat it, and it didn't even take them very long to do so once confronted with the problem.
-Because the BoP in GEN isn't cloaked, and there's no immediate evidence suggesting the D's weapons grid is offline anytime soon, they're not even remotely defenseless.
-It's been my understanding that Klingon BoPs can't fire while cloaked for the same reasons that Romulan ships can't do it, which is a mix of not having the power to do so coupled with the reality that the power they'd need to be able to do it would render the cloak ineffective because they'd be emitting too much energy for the cloak to conceal.

Mostly unrelated:
-I always figured the El-Aurians were just very circumspect about why they were refugees. I'm not exactly sure why they'd be that way...but then, Guinan was always very mysterious in TNG, so it kind of fits.

 

[Tallguy]

Data doesn't figure out how to penetrate the cloak, he figures out how to engage the cloak, which forces the BoP to divert energy from shields (or whatever). To that point the BoP isn't cloaked, which is why so many people find it so ludicrous that the E-D didn't simply blow them out of the stars once they opened fire, whether or not the E-D's shields were effective at the time.

I didn't say that.

What I ACTUALLY said was

They take out the Klingons because Data figures out where the stock footage is I mean figures out how to get them to de-cloak when they aren't in a position to fire.

In full:

Why not just shoot a ship that's de-cloaking when it's shooting at you? That's been "hard to do" since Balance of Terror. Should it be? I don't know. It's a Star Trek rule. (In TUC they react like "can't fire when cloaked" is some physical law of cloaking tech. In Balance of Terror it was just an energy problem.) They take out the Klingons because Data figures out where the stock footage is I mean figures out how to get them to de-cloak when they aren't in a position to fire.

Star Trek precedent is that shooting at ships that only de-cloak long enough to shoot at you is hard. Nigh impossible even.

 

[UssGlenn]

"How does Uhura (brilliant officer though she is) solve the problem of how to torpedo a cloaked ship when the best minds of the Federation could not?" "Why did this technology of firing when cloaked ever appear again?" Also, I think making a heat signature is a very 20th-century problem, isn't it?

-It's been my understanding that Klingon BoPs can't fire while cloaked for the same reasons that Romulan ships can't do it, which is a mix of not having the power to do so coupled with the reality that the power they'd need to be able to do it would render the cloak ineffective because they'd be emitting too much energy for the cloak to conceal.

That's exactly the flaw that's exploited in TUC. The new BOP prototype is designed to conceal the extra energy emissions, and it does so effectively from standard starship sensors. It's only when putting specialized sensors on the torpedo, that can fly right into the area of emissions and scan at close range, do they find a way to defeat it.

 

[Tallguy]

That's exactly the flaw that's exploited in TUC. The new BOP prototype is designed to conceal the extra energy emissions, and it does so effectively from standard starship sensors. It's only when putting specialized sensors on the torpedo, that can fly right into the area of emissions and scan at close range, do they find a way to defeat it.

Right. So why is this method not even better at detecting a regular cloaked ship? I would think if it could defeat the super cloak it would be gangbusters at your run of the mill "we have to de-cloak to fire" cloaking devices. Uhura just rendered 23rd century cloaking useless! (I suppose it was a Spock / Uhura solution.)

 

[CoveTom]

I didn't say that.

What I ACTUALLY said was


In full:

Star Trek precedent is that shooting at ships that only de-cloak long enough to shoot at you is hard. Nigh impossible even.

You have it backwards. The Bird of Prey in Generations was not cloaked during the battle. The Enterprise had a clear shot at them the entire time but, for whatever reason, only fired once. That's the issue. What Data (and Riker) figured out was how to get them to cloak so that their shields would drop momentarily. But even with shields, the BoP should have been no match for a barrage of fire from a Galaxy class starship.

 

[DonIago]

^Exactly; thank you.

 

[DonIago]

Right. So why is this method not even better at detecting a regular cloaked ship? I would think if it could defeat the super cloak it would be gangbusters at your run of the mill "we have to de-cloak to fire" cloaking devices. Uhura just rendered 23rd century cloaking useless! (I suppose it was a Spock / Uhura solution.)

One theory, which is also sensible to me, is that cloaking and cloaking-detection tech are essentially a bit of an arms race. In TSFS Kruge has a cloak that is or has become detectable or at least visible to Starfleet sensors (or at least appears on the viewscreen). By TUC there's no longer a visible or detectable distortion, but Our Heroes modify a torpedo with specialized equipment so that it can detect the improved cloak. Presumably after that point the Klingons improve their cloaking tech further to counteract Starfleet's advantage.

 

[UssGlenn]

One theory, which is also sensible to me, is that cloaking and cloaking-detection tech are essentially a bit of an arms race. In TSFS Kruge has a cloak that is or has become detectable or at least visible to Starfleet sensors (or at least appears on the viewscreen). By TUC there's no longer a visible or detectable distortion, but Our Heroes modify a torpedo with specialized equipment so that it can detect the improved cloak. Presumably after that point the Klingons improve their cloaking tech further to counteract Starfleet's advantage.

I like that theory too, but Picard season 3, has the Bounty's cloak effective against early 25th century sensors. Though I've only watched it once, so I don't remember all the details about its use.

 

[DonIago]

I like that theory too, but Picard season 3, has the Bounty's cloak effective against early 25th century sensors. Though I've only watched it once, so I don't remember all the details about its use.

I wonder whether we're supposed to assume that the Bounty has been upgraded with a modern cloaking device...or that TPTB just dropped the ball there.

 

[Tallguy]

You have it backwards. The Bird of Prey in Generations was not cloaked during the battle. The Enterprise had a clear shot at them the entire time but, for whatever reason, only fired once. That's the issue. What Data (and Riker) figured out was how to get them to cloak so that their shields would drop momentarily. But even with shields, the BoP should have been no match for a barrage of fire from a Galaxy class starship.

Well gorram it, you are absolutely correct. Clearly I'm getting my stories mixed up. Endless apologies.

OK, give me a minute...

Wow. That whole battle is only 2:30! From the first shot to the re-used footage from TUC.

SO. The very first thing that happens is that Riker orders return fire. And they DO try to head for the hills. ("Get us out of orbit!") Riker is not just sitting there taking it on the chin. His first instinct is to a) fire back b) try to get out of range and c) try to get the BoP shields down and very quickly is able to do so. This all makes sense to me. There's also a lot of the battle that we don't see the bridge or the outside. So the Enterprise may be firing more. One of the Durases says "Our shields are holding" indicating continued fire.

We have certainly seen BoP with shields up taking multiple hits from the Enterprise. In the long run the Enterprise will win, but in the meantime they're getting carved up like a Christmas roast with their shields useless. Do they know it's because the Klingons have cracked their frequency? Should it be standard procedure to cycle it? We're only thirty seconds in and Riker is trying to get someone to solve the problem. Shield frequency is not their first guess.

We're at 53 seconds and engineering takes a bad hit to the warp core. (Sparks!)

1:10 seconds and Data figures it out. 1:47 it looks like the Enterprise takes a hit to the stardrive section impulse engine. 2:20 and the BoP drops the shields. (Hey! It's Brian Thompson!) Riker asked for a full spread of torpedoes but Worf fires one. And it takes out the Bird of Prey. (There's your power imbalance! KaCHOW)

So it's actually pretty brisk. I have fewer complaints (about this) than I did when I started.

One theory, which is also sensible to me, is that cloaking and cloaking-detection tech are essentially a bit of an arms race. In TSFS Kruge has a cloak that is or has become detectable or at least visible to Starfleet sensors (or at least appears on the viewscreen). By TUC there's no longer a visible or detectable distortion, but Our Heroes modify a torpedo with specialized equipment so that it can detect the improved cloak. Presumably after that point the Klingons improve their cloaking tech further to counteract Starfleet's advantage.

I think you're absolutely right. I know that's been stated in books and such if not outright in the shows or films. I just think "We can track the exhaust!" was not as brilliant as Meyer might have thought it was.

 

[Uxi]

I'm sure it's a feelings thing. I didn't think the "nooks and crannies" of the battle in Star Trek VI were well addressed. "How does Uhura (brilliant officer though she is) solve the problem of how to torpedo a cloaked ship when the best minds of the Federation could not?" "Why did this technology of firing when cloaked ever appear again?" Also, I think making a heat signature is a very 20th-century problem, isn't it? (This is the problem with not-military geniuses trying to write military geniuses. See also The Picard Maneuver.)

Yes, would have been better if Uhura had used communications to triangulate Chang's position and having the computer estimate it's vector/trajectory based on his pattern rather having a "tail pipe" analogy and How does she know what a tail pipe is anyway? The more Chang talked and gloated, the more he gave away his position. That would have been more in her wheelhouse and been more plausible to the character and her background. Spock at sensors and Chekov at weapons all coordinating to get the torpedo on target giving them all something to do. McCoy should have been treating the casualties caused by those many hits and Scotty doing what he does, repairing damage and keeping power going.

Similar to having Spock and McCoy "perform surgery" on the torpedo instead of weapon's specialists (Enterprise-A is fully manned at least in this movie or more Chekov's position - though he went from weapons/defense/security as he was in TMP back to Navigator apparently?).

 

[NCC-73515]

How does she know what a tail pipe is anyway?

She was in 1986 SF

 

[DonIago]

"I heard about them when we were in San Francisco..."

 

[Phoenix219]

One theory, which is also sensible to me, is that cloaking and cloaking-detection tech are essentially a bit of an arms race. In TSFS Kruge has a cloak that is or has become detectable or at least visible to Starfleet sensors (or at least appears on the viewscreen). By TUC there's no longer a visible or detectable distortion, but Our Heroes modify a torpedo with specialized equipment so that it can detect the improved cloak. Presumably after that point the Klingons improve their cloaking tech further to counteract Starfleet's advantage.

This explains the back and forth between ENT and Balance of Terror, too, except for some of Spock's verbage.

 

[CoveTom]

Yes, would have been better if Uhura had used communications to triangulate Chang's position and having the computer estimate it's vector/trajectory based on his pattern rather having a "tail pipe" analogy and How does she know what a tail pipe is anyway? The more Chang talked and gloated, the more he gave away his position. That would have been more in her wheelhouse and been more plausible to the character and her background. Spock at sensors and Chekov at weapons all coordinating to get the torpedo on target giving them all something to do. McCoy should have been treating the casualties caused by those many hits and Scotty doing what he does, repairing damage and keeping power going.

Similar to having Spock and McCoy "perform surgery" on the torpedo instead of weapon's specialists (Enterprise-A is fully manned at least in this movie or more Chekov's position - though he went from weapons/defense/security as he was in TMP back to Navigator apparently?).

Look, it could have been worse. Uhura could have had to do a fan dance to distract Chang.

Seriously, though, it was nice to see Uhura get to come up with the solution for once. Although it wasn't in her area of specialty, I don't think it takes a lot of advanced training to make the connection that if the ship expends gas and they have equipment for studying gaseous anomalies, that the latter might be useful against the former. I agree that having her come up with a way to triangulate Chang's position based on communications would have been more in her wheelhouse, but I still think it works fine as it is.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

One theory, which is also sensible to me, is that cloaking and cloaking-detection tech are essentially a bit of an arms race.

It's stated outright in The Enterprise Incident

COMMANDER: You realise that very soon we will learn to penetrate the cloaking device you stole.
SPOCK: Obviously. Military secrets are the most fleeting of all.

 

[David cgc]

Riker asked for a full spread of torpedoes but Worf fires one.

My headcanon for that (graciously provided by my older sister after I asked that question as a wee little baby fan when the movie first came out) was that they were doing that thing that happened sometimes in TNG where they'd fire a bunch of torpedos at once, so it looked like one torpedo (like at 6:30 in this video), and then they'd all split apart, and they just did the "split apart" bit really close to the Bird of Prey so we didn't see it happen.

 

[cooleddie74]

Not my favorite TNG Era movie but a strong second. It's got enough plot holes to fly all of Starfleet through but it entertains me, and the cinematography may well be the best of ANY Trek film. The way they lit the TV sets for a big screen remains nothing short of impressive.

 

[oktay]

My favorite old star trek movies are the TNG Movies

 

[Tallguy]

My favorite old star trek movies are the TNG Movies

Controversial Opinions thread is someplace else.