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I will concede the point that they can line Duranium alloy with another material that is good at actively blocking scans of the 24th century design (and maybe some forward thinking that can block some scans from perhaps early 25th century), HOWEVER, this should be IRRELEVANT when it comes to 32nd century scanners, because they should have advanced to the point where material science of the 24th century shouldn't be able to trump over 32nd century sensor [and other tech/science] advancements).
Yeah, you keep believing in that magical progression of tech, but ignore the laws of physics.
EM signals can only scan so far & be effective, there are limits to sensor ranges and how accurate you can detect something further out, especially when something is designed to be hidden.
Heck, even 29th century scanning technology was easily able to penetrate VOY shielding and hull to beam Starling back to his office.
It's easy to bust through shields when you have the schematics of how it works and how to bypass it with future tech.
There is no way that I can buy the idea that this would remain the case for 800 years.
Heck, I don't even buy the premise it would be the case after 50 or 100 years.
This is kinda the problem with Disco writers... in some respects, they try and maintain the idea things have advanced, but in most, they almost seem to be no better than what was available in the 22nd or 23rd century.
You know that 50/100 years ago, the base concepts of Stealth were already being talked about, but not thought about in any serious ways. They didn't have the deep grasp of how important Radar Stealth would be.
Hitler actually had the basis for a Stealth Fighter, if they understood the value of Stealth and how important it was, especially against England's Radar Wall, they could've made better use of it.
Luckily, they weren't all that informed or understood it's value.
Something we know ALOT more about now, EM Stealth is VERY important in modern warfare.
It doesn't make you invisible, but it lowers the detection range significantly.
Given you're hiding the equivalent of a "a needle in a planet" with that Tiny Cannister being hidden in our side of the Galaxy, it's more than enough stealth to make it damn near impossible to be found at long range.
They didn't do it in the 32nd century... the container surrounding the portal was made in the 24th century (because most of the clues were hidden with tech and science of that era)
I will concede the point that they can line Duranium alloy with another material that is good at actively blocking scans of the 24th century design (and maybe some forward thinking that can block some scans from perhaps early 25th century), HOWEVER, this should be IRRELEVANT when it comes to 32nd century scanners, because they should have advanced to the point where material science of the 24th century shouldn't be able to trump over 32nd century sensor [and other tech/science] advancements).
Heck, even 29th century scanning technology was easily able to penetrate VOY shielding and hull to beam Starling back to his office.
There is no way that I can buy the idea that this would remain the case for 800 years.
Heck, I don't even buy the premise it would be the case after 50 or 100 years.
This is kinda the problem with Disco writers... in some respects, they try and maintain the idea things have advanced, but in most, they almost seem to be no better than what was available in the 22nd or 23rd century.
You don't have to buy it. But he episode states that the alloy was effective against 32nd Century shields. Therefore it is. What ever those 24th Century scientists came up with withstood the passage of time and advancement of technology to still work 800 years later. The scientists chose wisely and perhaps also chose not to share this alloy with the wider Galaxy. Technological advancement isn't always measured in even steps.
It's only unstable if there were Stellar Objects of uneven size, but since the Black Holes appear to be similar, the Lagrange Point 1 that is shared by both of them might be stable
Sorry scientific point here but L1 points are inherently unstable.
The L1 point remains fundamentally unstable regardless of the mass ratio between the two bodies. This instability is a consequence of the gravitational dynamics and centrifugal forces at play rather than the specific masses of the two bodies.
Let's not forget that 23rd century Federation scientists created the Genesis Device, a torpedo-sized piece of technology that could literally create a new, habitable world out of a dead planet, moon or planetoid and in a matter of weeks or months. The Progenitor tech protection canister would probably be B-level for scientists from almost 100 years later.
Sorry scientific point here but L1 points are inherently unstable.
The L1 point remains fundamentally unstable regardless of the mass ratio between the two bodies. This instability is a consequence of the gravitational dynamics and centrifugal forces at play rather than the specific masses of the two bodies.
They didn't do it in the 32nd century... the container surrounding the portal was made in the 24th century (because most of the clues were hidden with tech and science of that era)
I will concede the point that they can line Duranium alloy with another material that is good at actively blocking scans of the 24th century design (and maybe some forward thinking that can block some scans from perhaps early 25th century), HOWEVER, this should be IRRELEVANT when it comes to 32nd century scanners, because they should have advanced to the point where material science of the 24th century shouldn't be able to trump over 32nd century sensor [and other tech/science] advancements).
Heck, even 29th century scanning technology was easily able to penetrate VOY shielding and hull to beam Starling back to his office.
There is no way that I can buy the idea that this would remain the case for 800 years.
Heck, I don't even buy the premise it would be the case after 50 or 100 years.
This is kinda the problem with Disco writers... in some respects, they try and maintain the idea things have advanced, but in most, they almost seem to be no better than what was available in the 22nd or 23rd century.
This is the third season set in the 32nd century. At this point, it should be obvious futuristic depictions of technological advancement is not this show's goal. And to be honest, I'm glad it isn't.
This is the third season set in the 32nd century. At this point, it should be obvious futuristic depictions of technological advancement is not this show's goal. And to be honest, I'm glad it isn't.
There is nothing 'magical' about the fact that technology evolves exponentially and changes (sometimes on a fundamental level).
Trek on the other hand decided NOT to portray that with Disco's future (which is what's bugging me about it).
EM signals can only scan so far & be effective, there are limits to sensor ranges and how accurate you can detect something further out, especially when something is designed to be hidden.
And you keep assuming that sensors would still operate on exactly the same principles or wouldn't have the ability to penetrate most if not all alloys, substances and composites that a proverbial handful of scientists from 800 years ago thought about (their knowledge base and ability would have been infinitely smaller vs what happened in the proceeding 680 years leading up to the Burn).
Sure, the scientists who came up with the container were from different species, but its highly likely that UFP alone would have come up with same ideas in the next 680 years and found a way to overcome it.
It's easy to bust through shields when you have the schematics of how it works and how to bypass it with future tech.
We know that transporter beams can cut through shields if the beam is either strong enough, or you know the shield frequencies. Dunbar did not have access to VOY schematics like Starling because he was executing commands from the timeship Aeon itself and the dialogue confirms that Aeon's transporter beam was able to cut through VOY shields as if they weren't there - implying the signal was so powerful that the transporter beam could ignore the shields easily.
You know that 50/100 years ago, the base concepts of Stealth were already being talked about, but not thought about in any serious ways. They didn't have the deep grasp of how important Radar Stealth would be.
Let's clear something up here:
50/100 years ago, we were just coming into technological development of various concepts and knew far less vs what we know today.
You cannot compare a proverbial 'blip' of our own speed of technological progression of the last 100 years to UFP's that has already been advancing for hundreds of years by the 24th century and whose progression would be far faster with infinitely more knowledge being available to them.
For us, progress was relatively slow for a long period of time and then it started increasing since the industrial revolution.
We are just now starting to witness even quicker progression in technical and scientific breakthroughs that no longer take decades but years or less (especially with AI and adaptive algorithms in the mix doing R&D tens or thousands to millions of times faster than we can).. for something like UFP that regularly explores the galaxy, they would have amassed so much knowledge leading up to the Burn that it wouldn't have been funny... so technically speaking, anything those scientists thought of in the 24th century would have likely been surpassed by UFP and other organisations fairly soon after it was conceived of (probably by mid/late 25th century).
The main difference here is that in those 800 years, no one really thought about going after the Progenitor's technology in the first place.
Hitler actually had the basis for a Stealth Fighter, if they understood the value of Stealth and how important it was, especially against England's Radar Wall, they could've made better use of it.
Luckily, they weren't all that informed or understood it's value.
Something we know ALOT more about now, EM Stealth is VERY important in modern warfare.
It doesn't make you invisible, but it lowers the detection range significantly.
Given you're hiding the equivalent of a "a needle in a planet" with that Tiny Cannister being hidden in our side of the Galaxy, it's more than enough stealth to make it damn near impossible to be found at long range.[/QUOTE]
First off, I wasn't talking about detecting it from long range... I was mainly talking about penetrating the outer container shell which was made with 24th century knowledge and science to be able to tell what's on the inside of it.
ENT was smart not to show much of the tech from Daniels' time (the 31st century) aside from his futuristic holo-tricorder and a few other handheld devices. When he and Archer visited the devastated 31st century changed by the Temporal Cold War we were taken on a tour of an old-style library with physical books and the quantum device Archer built to communicate with his ship 900 years in the past was made out of crude wreckage.
The less DSC's late 32nd century looks like some insane AI fest the better.
This is the third season set in the 32nd century. At this point, it should be obvious futuristic depictions of technological advancement is not this show's goal. And to be honest, I'm glad it isn't.
It should have been for few reasons:
1. Trek always depicted progress and positive outlook of the future.
2. You cannot set something 800 years in the future and then ignore everything that happened in the past, because it just makes for boring and repetitive storytelling where consistency is lost (Disco had an opportunity to showcase something very different and interesting with Trek by going this far into the future, and it failed spectacularly at that - at least as far as I'm concerned).
Trek just does variations on themes. Lasers went to phasers so that they got more flexibility with what it could do, and not be limited by what lasers were known to do.
Warp drive is always based on the needs of the plot, especially with speeds, and power generation.
Sensors work until they can't.
Transporters have always been wonky. They just don't smoke when they go wrong post TOS.
There is nothing 'magical' about the fact that technology evolves exponentially and changes (sometimes on a fundamental level).
Trek on the other hand decided NOT to portray that with Disco's future (which is what's bugging me about it).
I believe everything follows a "S-curve", we'll eventually hit a plateau in all areas of tech and slow down.
And you keep assuming that sensors would still operate on exactly the same principles or wouldn't have the ability to penetrate most if not all alloys, substances and composites that a proverbial handful of scientists from 800 years ago thought about (their knowledge base and ability would have been infinitely smaller vs what happened in the proceeding 680 years leading up to the Burn).
Sure, the scientists who came up with the container were from different species, but its highly likely that UFP alone would have come up with same ideas in the next 680 years and found a way to overcome it.
Show me how they would accomplish that? What kind of EM signal or signal of any source are they using to scan with?
We know that transporter beams can cut through shields if the beam is either strong enough, or you know the shield frequencies. Dunbar did not have access to VOY schematics like Starling because he was executing commands from the timeship Aeon itself and the dialogue confirms that Aeon's transporter beam was able to cut through VOY shields as if they weren't there - implying the signal was so powerful that the transporter beam could ignore the shields easily.
Well, then he had a Transporter with a VERY powerful signal, once that can easily defeat Voyager.
Let's clear something up here:
50/100 years ago, we were just coming into technological development of various concepts and knew far less vs what we know today.
You cannot compare a proverbial 'blip' of our own speed of technological progression of the last 100 years to UFP's that has already been advancing for hundreds of years by the 24th century and whose progression would be far faster with infinitely more knowledge being available to them.
You're assuming that exponential growth will be infinite.
Something I don't really believe in fundamentally. I believe all things will slow down.
There might be a period of explosive growth, and then there will be major slow downs or dead ends in research.
For us, progress was relatively slow for a long period of time and then it started increasing since the industrial revolution.
We are just now starting to witness even quicker progression in technical and scientific breakthroughs that no longer take decades but years or less (especially with AI and adaptive algorithms in the mix doing R&D tens or thousands to millions of times faster than we can).. for something like UFP that regularly explores the galaxy, they would have amassed so much knowledge leading up to the Burn that it wouldn't have been funny... so technically speaking, anything those scientists thought of in the 24th century would have likely been surpassed by UFP and other organisations fairly soon after it was conceived of (probably by mid/late 25th century).
It was kept secret, very well hidden. That's what good secrets are, nearly impossible to find.
First off, I wasn't talking about detecting it from long range... I was mainly talking about penetrating the outer container shell which was made with 24th century knowledge and science to be able to tell what's on the inside of it.
They were only ~60,000 km away from the container when Discovery was trying to scan it.
That's easily close range sensors for a 32nd Century StarShip, even while cloaked.
Tilly mentioned that if they were any further away, they wouldn't have been able to detect it.
Ergo some "Stealth Properties" applied to the hull of the small shuttle sized Cylindrical container to prevent folks from scanning inside.
It should have been for few reasons:
1. Trek always depicted progress and positive outlook of the future.
2. You cannot set something 800 years in the future and then ignore everything that happened in the past, because it just makes for boring and repetitive storytelling where consistency is lost (Disco had an opportunity to showcase something very different and interesting with Trek by going this far into the future, and it failed spectacularly at that - at least as far as I'm concerned).
I disagree, but regardless the point I was making was here we are, third season into the 32nd century. We know what it's like and what to expect, technologically speaking.
Disco had an opportunity to showcase something very different and interesting with Trek by going this far into the future, and it failed spectacularly at that - at least as far as I'm concerned
Showing futuristic technological advancement would not have made the show better or more popular. Indeed, given one of the more popular sci-fi movie/television franchises (Star Wars) intentionally shows technology stuck at a 1970s/80s idea of futuristic, I can see an argument against futurism in sci-fi.
And given half the Trek fandom is screaming over SNW being inconsistent with the 1960s aesthetic of TOS, modern Trek writers and producers can understandably be led to believe futurism has no place in Trek. Hell, some of the most popular Trek movies had directors who loaded those movies with all sorts of anachronisms. Those movies are amongst the franchise's top money makers.
