Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x07 - "Erigah"

[Citiprime]

That's one of the weird things about the 32nd century for me too. If anything the Federation and Starfleet in the 32nd century should be more like something out of the Culture novels than TOS (One of the things that DIS: "Whistlespeak" did really well, even though in general I didn't like that episode, was the "eyecorder" tech and how well the undercover-in-a-primitive-society thing worked). We're seeing literally centuries of stagnation where the only major technological development seems to be Tron lighting!

And yes, the Burn, yes, suddenly dilithium became an incredibly important mcguffin again after TNG/DS9/VOY and even ENT pretty much ignored its existence beyond a mention or two... but even so. Why by the 32nd century can't you just replicate dilithium? Or use holographic dilithium? Or not have dilithium at all because why do warp drives still apparently work the same way after nine hundred years!? I don't really want to watch Star Trek for its take on a technologically regressed post-apocalyptic world.

I feel like they didn't really want to think through all of the implications of what a Federation 800 years after TNG, DS9 and VOY would mean. It's almost as if they thought of what would look "cool," like programmable matter that can shape shift, sleek white sets that look futuristic, and warp nacelles that float disconnected (personal aside ... those floating nacelles are still something that I think is one of the dumbest additions to canon), but didn't think out how the structure of Starfleet and the galaxy they inhabit would evolve over 8 centuries.

For example, why are they still limited to warp drive?

We know from Voyager the Borg are using transwarp drive in the 24th century. We know the Borg figured out a way to even create a transwarp network through the Milky Way. And that's even before you consider that Voyager had fooled around with quantum slipstream tech that's implied to be even better than transwarp. In all of those centuries, the Federation couldn't replicate that tech?

The only reason I can think of that they didn't want to introduce those concepts as being the new normal is that they thought it complicates the "specialness" of the spore drive.

 

[fireproof78]

For example, why are they still limited to warp drive?

It's safe.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Reno was on Discovery. 6 minutes between those scenes doesn;t indicate that 6 minutes had passed in the events occuring around Earth.

Right. The scenes could have happened at the same time, or a half hour apart.

 

[Fateor]

Reno was on Discovery. 6 minutes between those scenes doesn;t indicate that 6 minutes had passed in the events occuring around Earth.

Unless you have some proof the scenes take place at wildly separate times, it absolutely does.

 

[Skywalker]

Starfleet was already experimenting with transwarp technology in the late 23rd century. Given how the warp scale changed between the TOS and TNG eras (i.e., TNG warp is faster), it's easy to infer that what the 23rd century Starfleet called transwarp had simply become warp by the time of TNG, so there's no reason to assume that 32nd century warp is on the same scale that 24th/25th century warp was. The term transwarp can just mean warp speeds beyond those that can be achieved by traditional warp drive. What the 32nd century Starfleet calls warp could be orders of magnitude faster than it was in the 25th century and before; it's just that for them, it's not transwarp, it's just plain warp.

 

[JoseNoodles]

8/10 Decent episode with a lot of moving parts that mostly paid off. I figured out Book's vision pretty early on, so the reveal of the Badlands at the end felt a bit trite, but overall pretty good. I'm assuming that Book is going to mount a rescue mission on his own at some point.

 

[Fateor]

But, Trek doesn't really do development. It does sameness.

This is patently false.

There's a clear and constant state of development from Enterprise to Prodigy.

 

[Macintosh]

I feel like they didn't really want to think through all of the implications of what a Federation 800 years after TNG, DS9 and VOY would mean. It's almost as if they thought of what would look "cool," like programmable matter that can shape shift, sleek white sets that look futuristic, and warp nacelles that float disconnected (personal aside ... those floating nacelles are still something that I think is one of the dumbest additions to canon), but didn't think out how the structure of Starfleet and the galaxy they inhabit would evolve over 8 centuries.

For example, why are they still limited to warp drive?

We know from Voyager the Borg are using transwarp drive in the 24th century. We know the Borg figured out a way to even create a transwarp network through the Milky Way. And that's even before you consider that Voyager had fooled around with quantum slipstream tech that's implied to be even better than transwarp. In all of those centuries, the Federation couldn't replicate that tech?

The only reason I can think of that they didn't want to introduce those concepts as being the new normal is that they thought it complicates the "specialness" of the spore drive.

I think at least 75% of the issues I had with Discovery at the start could have been fixed by:

• Setting it in the mid-25th century, decades after Picard and 200 years after TOS, and avoiding tying it in to any other established era so closely. Which leads into...
• Getting rid of all the "Spock's secret stepsister" guff. Absolutely harmed the show for me out of the gate. Burnham being a human raised by Vulcans is an interesting enough idea on its own without it having to be by bloody Sarek for god's sake.
• Having the weird pointlessly redesigned Klingons be Breen, or Tzenkethi, or something new... just anything else other than weird pointlessly redesigned Klingons.
• Can we not have the spore drive powered by magic mushrooms? Just, you know... be something else that doesn't sound like it's out of a Mario game!?
• Give them some decent uniforms FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

Apart from that you wouldn't really have to change anything. The spore drive is no longer a canon-breaker that Voyager could have REALLY done with knowing about. The Discovery-era ship designs don't need to change. You can still have the mirror universe stuff and the war and the Section 31 gubbins, and hey, it makes more sense that everyone knows about them now right. Hell, explain away Discovery's design quirks like the brown hull by saying it's one of the first ships out of the Bajoran shipyards and some of their shipbuilding technology was reverse-engineered from a certain old Cardassian mining station. And hey, you could even avoid having the jump to the 32nd century.

 

[fireproof78]

This is patently false.

There's a clear and constant state of development from Enterprise to Prodigy.

In a substantial way I don't think so. Still phasers, warp drive and computer with voice commands. Enterprise feels like The Next Generation.

 

[Mr Awe]

Since nobody else sees to gave realised this, Mol wants the Progenitor tech to bring Lo'k back from the dead, as it was awkwardly established to do a few episodes ago.

That has been mentioned several times in this thread.

I think a more interesting use would be to bring the original Cleveland Booker back and find out why he was such a dick father!!

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Unless you have some proof the scenes take place at wildly separate times, it absolutely does.

Unless you have proof the scenes happen in the same timespan, it absolutely doesn't

 

[Mr Awe]

In a substantial way I don't think so. Still phasers, warp drive and computer with voice commands. Enterprise feels like The Next Generation.

I'd agree with you on a technological standpoint.

Phasers and photon torpedoes become more powerful, but so do shields. Warp drive becomes faster but everything still moves according to the needs of the plot. Etc.

Although, I think ENT showed humans as being underpowered compared to other players with them being the newcomers.

The best large scale changes I find are in the galactic scale politics, such as Klingons becoming allies, all the various political changes in DS9, etc.

 

[Elaise]

Starfleet was already experimenting with transwarp technology in the late 23rd century. Given how the warp scale changed between the TOS and TNG eras (i.e., TNG warp is faster), it's easy to infer that what the 23rd century Starfleet called transwarp had simply become warp by the time of TNG, so there's no reason to assume that 32nd century warp is on the same scale that 24th/25th century warp was. The term transwarp can just mean warp speeds beyond those that can be achieved by traditional warp drive. What the 32nd century Starfleet calls warp could be orders of magnitude faster than it was in the 25th century and before; it's just that for them, it's not transwarp, it's just plain warp.

Have you seen voyager? we have seen what warp in in disco, it looks nothing like transwarp, it looks like regular TNG warp with altered special effects.

I'd agree with you on a technological standpoint.

Phasers and photon torpedoes become more powerful, but so do shields. Warp drive becomes faster but everything still moves according to the needs of the plot. Etc.

Although, I think ENT showed humans as being underpowered compared to other players with them being the newcomers.

The best large scale changes I find are in the galactic scale politics, such as Klingons becoming allies, all the various political changes in DS9, etc.

The progression is pretty decent from ENT to Picard, it almost mirrors our progression from say the early 20th century to today. Though, if you go from today to 900 years from now the change is immensely substantial.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

For example, why are they still limited to warp drive?

We know from Voyager the Borg are using transwarp drive in the 24th century. We know the Borg figured out a way to even create a transwarp network through the Milky Way. And that's even before you consider that Voyager had fooled around with quantum slipstream tech that's implied to be even better than transwarp. In all of those centuries, the Federation couldn't replicate that tech?

The only reason I can think of that they didn't want to introduce those concepts as being the new normal is that they thought it complicates the "specialness" of the spore drive.

The Spore Drive does have 'specialness' but it also has drawbacks which is why the Pathway drive appears to be the new propulsion system starfleet will use on it's newer ships.

It's never stated that the Federation didn't use faster propulsion systems before the Burn, just that those systems were more problematic to use. Book mentions Quantum slipstream in 'That hope is you, part 1' and that his ship is capable of it, but benamite continues to be a rare commodity. Transwarp tunnels are shown to be permanent once they are created and degrade over time and become dangerous to use. So it's possible the Federation just focused on making warp faster because dilithium was considered abundant. There's some onscreen evidence for this given that in season 4 representatives of all four quadrants are said to present at the meeting to decide the course of action regarding the DMA, season 5 features an Annari, a delta quadrant species and references to the Krenim, suggesting contact with them at some point during the temporal war. So they all had to be zipping around somehow. For all we know pre-burn ships could travel at like warp 20 that could get you to the delta quadrant in a few weeks or whatever and then they started using older drive methods because everyone thought new tech had caused the burn.

Discovery isn't the first series to be inconsistent or ambiguous about things. Trek was very ambiguous on details until TNG and even in TNG, warp moved at the speed of plot. The Enterprise-D was visiting worlds like Malcor, which was said onscreen to be 2000 light years from the Federation, like it was no big deal.

 

[Skywalker]

I think at least 75% of the issues I had with Discovery at the start could have been fixed by:

• Setting it in the mid-25th century, decades after Picard and 200 years after TOS, and avoiding tying it in to any other established era so closely. Which leads into...
• Getting rid of all the "Spock's secret stepsister" guff. Absolutely harmed the show for me out of the gate. Burnham being a human raised by Vulcans is an interesting enough idea on its own without it having to be by bloody Sarek for god's sake.
• Having the weird pointlessly redesigned Klingons be Breen, or Tzenkethi, or something new... just anything else other than weird pointlessly redesigned Klingons.
• Can we not have the spore drive powered by magic mushrooms? Just, you know... be something else that doesn't sound like it's out of a Mario game!?
• Give them some decent uniforms FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

Apart from that you wouldn't really have to change anything. The spore drive is no longer a canon-breaker that Voyager could have REALLY done with knowing about. The Discovery-era ship designs don't need to change. You can still have the mirror universe stuff and the war and the Section 31 gubbins, and hey, it makes more sense that everyone knows about them now right. Hell, explain away Discovery's design quirks like the brown hull by saying it's one of the first ships out of the Bajoran shipyards and some of their shipbuilding technology was reverse-engineered from a certain old Cardassian mining station. And hey, you could even avoid having the jump to the 32nd century.

I generally agree with almost all of this. I think most of DSC's initial problems could have been avoided if it had been set in the 25th century instead of the 23rd.

However, I didn't mind having the Klingons be the bad guys in season one (although I definitely agree that the redesign was terrible). In fact, I would have made it so that the war was sparked by the Klingon Empire officially dissolving itself and Qo'noS joining the Federation, with T'Kuvma leading an extremist, ultranationalist faction that rejects Federation membership and tries to reunite the Klingon Empire by force.

 

[Fateor]

In a substantial way I don't think so. Still phasers, warp drive and computer with voice commands. Enterprise feels like The Next Generation.

Except not.

In Enterprise they used Particle weapons, in TOS they used Lasers, then in Next Generation they advanced to Phasers.

In Enterprise it was Warp 5, in TOS it was Warp 8, by TNG they re-did the entire warp scale and it was Warp 9.8, by Voyager that increased that Warp 9.975, by Prodigy they were upgrading to Proto-Warp and Slipstream.

Further, your attempts to use "warp drive" at all is also disingenuous. Because that's like saying humanity has been stagnant because after 2000 years we still use the wheel.

Unless you have proof the scenes happen in the same timespan, it absolutely doesn't

You mean like say, them counting down the time like we saw in the episode? That I provided direct quotes of.

Sorry, but you don't get to ignore that without full on evidence showing the scenes were non-linear. Which you absolutely do no have.

Book mentions Quantum slipstream in 'That hope is you, part 1' and that his ship is capable of it, but benamite continues to be a rare commodity.

Benamite crystals could be artificially synthesized, the limiting factor in their creation was time, not material scarcity.

And also, the original slipstream drive didn't even require Benamite.

 

[fireproof78]

In Enterprise they used Particle weapons, in TOS they used Lasers, then in Next Generation they advanced to Phasers.

Incorrect. Phasers were introduced in the Original Series as lasers were too limiting.; same with dilithium. Phase pistols acted just like phasers.

in TOS it was Warp 8, by TNG they re-did the entire warp scale and it was Warp 9.8, by

Except when they went Warp 13.

Further, your attempts to use "warp drive" at all is also disingenuous. Because that's like saying humanity has been stagnant because after 2000 years we still use the wheel.

In some ways, yes. But, that's another discussion.

 

[Tuskin38]

in TOS they used Lasers,

Only in 'The Cage', the rest of the series used phasers.

The first use of the word 'phaser' was TOS: Where No Man Has Gone Before (if going by production order)

And also, the original slipstream drive didn't even require Benamite.

There's no evidence of that.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Except not.

In Enterprise they used Particle weapons, in TOS they used Lasers, then in Next Generation they advanced to Phasers.

In Enterprise it was Warp 5, in TOS it was Warp 8, by TNG they re-did the entire warp scale and it was Warp 9.8, by Voyager that increased that Warp 9.975, by Prodigy they were upgrading to Proto-Warp and Slipstream.

Further, your attempts to use "warp drive" at all is also disingenuous. Because that's like saying humanity has been stagnant because after 2000 years we still use the wheel.



You mean like say, them counting down the time like we saw in the episode? That I provided direct quotes of.

Sorry, but you don't get to ignore that without full on evidence showing the scenes were non-linear. Which you absolutely do no have.



Benamite crystals could be artificially synthesized, the limiting factor in their creation was time, not material scarcity.

And also, the original slipstream drive didn't even require Benamite.

Scenes taking place in two separate locations aren't necessarily following the same span of time. This is pretty standard in screenwriting. All you have evidence of is that two scenes set on discovery were 6 minutes apart.

The original drive did require benamite. Voyager used the drive before they could properly test it because b'elanna points out that the benamite crystal are beginning to degrade and they can't synthesise more.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Benamite

 

[JoseNoodles]

I never get the beef with Spore Drive and Voyager. How do we know that they never considered it and decided it couldn't be implemented on the ship, considering the Discovery and Glen had to be retrofitted to support the technology. It's not like the Spore Drive is a USB stick that can just be plugged into a ship, and it's not like Janeway and crew had a bunch of starships to spare if something went wrong and Voyager was irreparably damaged.