Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x06 - "Whistlespeak"

[Bad Thoughts]

Speculation: Rayner was developed, in order to create drama on the Discovery, because so much location shooting was planned for Burnham.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Do we? For all we know their combadges automatically transport their waste and turn them into food considering how Vance described to Osyraa where their replicated apples come from.

Greetings from post 319.

 

[Nerys Myk]

they can manufacture shuttlecraft, built using individual replicated parts. We don't see a shuttlecraft replicator until Prodigy, and its very complicated, still replicating individual pieces and putting them together. So it might not be physically possible to replicate something that big in one go.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Technology to replicate small craft cheaply and quickly has been around since (Space: ) 1999.

 

[DEWLine]

 

[Lord Garth]

It's late in the thread now, so I think we can get away with this...

An 8? Wow. I never rated it numerically like that, but I comfortably placed it as the worst season of Star Trek ever.

Yeah, I know. That's probably one of my most controversial of Controversial Opinions here. "What the Hell are you thinking?!" I'm a mutant freak. That's what I am.

I ranked all the TNG Movies, PIC Seasons, and "The Best of Both Worlds" together recently, and I went into why I ranked them where I did.

Poll - Rank the Picard Seasons | Page 7 | The Trek BBS

Updating my rankings, since I've re-watched all the TNG Movies last week. They help put the Picard seasons into better context, at least for me. Rounding off to the nearest point on a 10-scale.

1. "The Best of Both Worlds" --> 10
The best TNG Movie technically wasn't a movie. I saw it in a theater in 2013, so it counts as far as I'm concerned. A major turning point in Picard's life, a major turning point for the Federation, looks at Riker's career, and it has Shelby challenging Riker from within while the Borg challenge the entire crew from without. Works on so many levels. The Ron Jones score sells it perfectly.

2. Star Trek: First Contact --> 10
TNG on the Big Screen, with a ship and sets built for the Big Screen. Follows up on Picard's trauma from BOBW, shows First Contact between Earth and Vulcan, introduces the Borg Queen, has some really raw scenes, and cuts right down to whether or not Humanity in the 24th Century actually really is as evolved as Picard says, and puts a microscope right up to that claim.

3. Picard Season 3 --> 9
Follows up on the entire TNG crew 20 years after Nemesis and sees how their lives have moved forward. Vadic has a charismatic Prescence. Shaw is a great addition who challenges Picard and Riker in a critical way, but also has flaws including the way he treats Seven. The season shows how Seven adjusts to actually being an actual Starfleet Officer as opposed to her time with the Fenris Rangers or a newly liberated ex-drone on Voyager. It also shows how Picard comes to terms with having a son and takes the Picard/Crusher relationship further than I ever expected to see. We get to see what Riker is actually like as a seasoned Captain for more than just the one scene we had in Season 1. I liked the reveal that Borg had a multi-layered plan where Picard could still lead to the assimilation of Humanity through offspring even after he was rescued from the Collective in BOBW. I liked how Shaw served as a reminder that more people suffered at the hands of Locutus than just Sisko. Loved how Picard's statement about Starfleet being "the only family I ever needed!" could be read on two levels: one it sounds great because he doesn't know about Jack, but to Jack that sounds really messed up, and then Picard thinking back to that moment and realizing the weight of what he actually said. And so many other things I've already pointed out before. I didn't even mention the D. This is getting too long....

4. Picard Season 1 --> 9
I liked that this season wasn't afraid to take Picard out of the context of Starfleet, the Enterprise, or his former crew, and dropped him into La Sirena on a mission unsanctioned by Starfleet to find Data's "daughter" and Dahj's "sister" Soji. This season masterfully wove the pieces left behind by Nemesis, the future scenes in "All Good Things", Spock Prime's recap of 2387 in Star Trek (2009) to create the world of 2399. La Sirena's crew was as different from the Enterprise-D crew as you could get. I also loved getting a different take on Seven of Nine, who's been hardened by her experiences since Voyager returned to the Alpha Quadrant. Best of all, this season had the best developed Romulans I've ever seen. It took everything we ever knew, saw, or heard about the Romulans and took it to another level.

5. Picard Season 2 --> 8
I enjoyed all the episodes on an individual level, even though the whole didn't quite add up, but I loved seeing the Confederation. I loved seeing a Borg Queen who wasn't obsessed with revenge, we got to see a version of her in a completely different context. I liked the 2024 scenes and some of the stuff other people didn't like I enjoyed, including the Car Chase. That actually had me on the edge of my seat. I loved when Picard and company crashed the NASA gathering on the night before Renee Picard's mission. It felt like an episode of Mission: Impossible (that series, BTW, is much better than the movies and was Star Trek's sister show in the '60s, so I recommend watching it if you have seen it). Seven and Raffi make a great duo. Rios's easy-going budding relationship with Teresa was nice to watch. Brent Spiner was perfect antagonist as Adam Soong. The storyline with Q could've used some work, but I did enjoy his scenes with the aforementioned Adam Soong. Penelope Mitchel was effective as Renee Picard. Orla Brady was great as Tallinn. If the writers couldn't find much for her to do as Laris, I'm glad they found more for her to do as Tallinn. Ito Aghayere was okay as a Young Guinan if you look at her as her own character, but she didn't really come across to me that well as a younger version of Whoopi Goldberg. I appreciated that this season wasn't afraid to look at Picard's past, and was able to directly contrast his mother as seen in "Where No One Has Gone Before" with his father as seen in "Tapestry", because they really did seem so different from each other. Kore was pretty much a different spin on Dahj and Soji where she thought she was one thing and found out she was really something else. All I have to say about the season. A lot more positive than people give it credit for. And a shout out to Lea Thompson for directing and making an appearance!

6. Star Trek: Generations --> 7
It's not a bad movie, it's just an uneven movie, and I don't think this was the best story to introduce TNG to for a movie audience if they hadn't watched the TV series. The cinematography is great, the lighting is moody, it was great to have Kirk meet Picard, but a lot of what's in the movie seemed too much like a checklist of things, which it was, but at least it had ambition and aimed for a story with a larger scope, unlike...

7. Star Trek: Insurrection --> 6
Sounds cliche to say this, but it's true: this feels like a middling episode with a movie-sized budget. That was always true, but now, in the time since January 6th, 2021, when we've seen an actual insurrection attempt, it makes this movie look tame compared to what it could've been. As it is, the film is pretty to look at, has nice effects, and is inoffensive... except during the flesh-stretching scenes!

8. Star Trek: Nemesis --> 5
I was going back-and-forth on whether or not to rank Insurrection last or Nemesis last, but I went with Nemesis. Insurrection didn't aim high whereas Nemesis aimed high and failed. I can't rank based on effort (in which case NEM wins), I have to rank based on what I see. And what I saw left me feeling in a dour mood when I walked out of the theater in 2002. The TNG Movies could've recovered from Insurrection. Nemesis killed TNG for almost two decades. It also killed my own interest in any further TNG until Picard came along, and I can't just ignore that. But the movie wasn't a total loss. It had its moments, and the soundtrack was some of Jerry Goldsmith's best work, but it just wasn't enough. Unlike in Picard Season 1, the Romulans here felt lackluster. The Remens did nothing for me. And Shinzon was boring. B-4 was annoying. The character moments among the TNG crew rise the movie. If someone did a fan-edit that focused on all the character moments, restored all the deleted scenes, and cut all the mind-numbing action scenes by half to two-thirds, it would've made for a much better movie.

Eventually, after the dust has settled, maybe a year from now, I'll do the same with all five seasons of Discovery. After I've really had a chance to hash it out in my brain.

I think I'm already pretty solid on where I have S1-S4. It's S5 that's the wild card.

 

[cultcross]

5. Picard Season 2 --> 8

If I banned you for that, no admin would convict me

 

[Mr Awe]

Whosoever wins this particular race is murdered.

Everyone else with the good sense not to be killed, took a dive.

The winners are crazy, ignorant, or morons.

It's like the ancient game of Ulama played by the Maya and Aztecs where the winning team was sacrificed!

 

[Mr Awe]

Which is why rating systems baffle me.

"I was bored. 6 out of 10."


Confusing.

I think you can be consistent in your own ratings. I try to be with mine. But of course everyone has their own rating system. I almost never give 10s because for me that means there is literally nothing to complain about!

A 7 is decent passable entertainment. I wasn't bored but it was nothing stellar or unique. Much of DIS S5 has been 7s for me. Although this episode was an 8.

With a 6, I would be somewhat bored at least some of them.

 

[fireproof78]

I think you can be consistent in your own ratings. I try to be with mine. But of course everyone has their own rating system. I almost never give 10s because for me that means there is literally nothing to complain about!

A 7 is decent passable entertainment. I wasn't bored but it was nothing stellar or unique. Much of DIS S5 has been 7s for me. Although this episode was an 8.

With a 6, I would be somewhat bored at least some of them.

Yeah, this is why I don't mess with numbers. If I were to do it such a scale it would be something like this:
9-10: Excellent
7-8: Above Average
5-6: Average
3-4: Below average: this is were boring would land.
1-2: poor

Again, all approximations but to me if boring is used, it ain't hitting a 6 or 5.

 

[Yistaan]

Speculation: Rayner was developed, in order to create drama on the Discovery, because so much location shooting was planned for Burnham.

Or they could've, you know, developed the background characters like Rhys, Owosekun, Nillson, Detmer etc. In a way it feels worse than 'These are the Voyages' honestly, at least those bridge crew cast all had a chance to shine.

 

[Mr Awe]

Yeah, this is why I don't mess with numbers. If I were to do it such a scale it would be something like this:
9-10: Excellent
7-8: Above Average
5-6: Average
3-4: Below average: this is were boring would land.
1-2: poor

Again, all approximations but to me if boring is used, it ain't hitting a 6 or 5.

For me at least, 6 is just where boring starts but the episode isn't a complete waste! It has some redeeming value. If a series consistently reaches a 5 at best, I stop watching!

I suspect that even if we used labels as you suggest, we'd still have differences. Is it average for star trek. Average to all shows. Or average to only the shows you watch, including ST.

At any rate, I rate mainly for myself and it's really just part of the discussion.

 

[fireproof78]

I suspect that even if we used labels as you suggest, we'd still have differences. Is it average for star trek. Average to all shows. Or average to only the shows you watch, including ST.

Average maybe to Star Trek, at best. Comparing to other shows is a fools errand, in my opinion. It's like going to a steak house and complaining that they don't have pizza.

 

[Mr Awe]

Average maybe to Star Trek, at best. Comparing to other shows is a fools errand, in my opinion. It's like going to a steak house and complaining that they don't have pizza.

That's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people use that approach though. And there is some logic to it.

And I'm not really thinking in terms of complaints. But if you like pizza better than something else, it wouldn't be surprising to see many pizza dishes with higher ranking in your list of all food rankings.

 

[fireproof78]

That's true, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people use that approach though. And there is some logic to it.

And I'm not really thinking in terms of complaints. But if you like pizza better than something else, it wouldn't be surprising to see many pizza dishes with higher ranking in your list of all food rankings.

But that's different than going in and saying that this steak house sucks because it doesn't have pizza. It's not a fair comparison.

Which is how different shows feel to me. Shows are just different-they're not the same, even within genre. I thoroughly enjoy Star Trek, but Stargate would seem to be more highly rated by me because most episodes I would rate higher than average.

I don't know. I guess I'd just rather look at a show on its own merits than say, "Well, that's ok but it's no Stargate." Feels a tiny bit absurd, all in my opinion.

 

[Lord Garth]

For me at least, 6 is just where boring starts but the episode isn't a complete waste! It has some redeeming value. If a series consistently reaches a 5 at best, I stop watching!

I suspect that even if we used labels as you suggest, we'd still have differences. Is it average for star trek. Average to all shows. Or average to only the shows you watch, including ST.

At any rate, I rate mainly for myself and it's really just part of the discussion.

My threshold is 6. If I'm giving too many 6's and I'm always like, "It was kind of okay, it killed some time," there's no excitement and I start drifting away. Even if I'm not rating the episodes, I can tell when a series is just a time-killer and I don't dislike it, but I also don't really care.

Kind of okay and I'm going to kind of stop watching...

Whereas the more I like something, the more I'm going to be forgiving of things and look the other way. Which is how we get me being okay with PIC Season 2 (because I like Picard) but not ENT Season 2. It's how I can look at SNW and say, "That's not TOS!" but then look at DSC S1-S2 and be like, "Totally fine! Who cares if everything's different?" Our biases inform everything. I'm just honest about it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Or they could've, you know, developed the background characters like Rhys, Owosekun, Nillson, Detmer etc. In a way it feels worse than 'These are the Voyages' honestly, at least those bridge crew cast all had a chance to shine.

The difference is the Bridge Crew in Enterprise were main character/focus characters from the start. The Discovery Bridge crew have always been been secondary, even tertiary characters. Why is this so hard to grasp?

 

[Mr Awe]

But that's different than going in and saying that this steak house sucks because it doesn't have pizza. It's not a fair comparison.

Which is how different shows feel to me. Shows are just different-they're not the same, even within genre. I thoroughly enjoy Star Trek, but Stargate would seem to be more highly rated by me because most episodes I would rate higher than average.

I don't know. I guess I'd just rather look at a show on its own merits than say, "Well, that's ok but it's no Stargate." Feels a tiny bit absurd, all in my opinion.

Well, you're putting a different spin on it than what I'm meaning. I'll tend to favor pizza over spaghetti, but that's just me. If I rate a pizza and spaghetti dinner, the pizza is just going to be higher. It's nothing against spaghetti, it's just not for me. However, I could find my top rated spaghetti dinners still by looking back at the past ratings. I can still prefer pizza but have a list of the best spaghetti.

But I'm not saying it's the best way. That's for each to decide. I think I'm actually thinking mainly of other ST series and episodes when rating a new episode. So, we're probably on a similar page.

 

[Mr Awe]

My threshold is 6. If I'm giving too many 6's and I'm always like, "It was kind of okay, it killed some time," there's no excitement and I start drifting away. Even if I'm not rating the episodes, I can tell when a series is just a time-killer and I don't dislike it, but I also don't really care.

Kind of okay and I'm going to kind of stop watching...

Whereas the more I like something, the more I'm going to forgiving things and look the other way. Which is how we get me being okay with PIC Season 2 (because I like Picard) but not ENT S2. It's how I can look at SNW and say, "That's not TOS!" but then look at DSC S1-S2 and be like, "Totally fine! Who cares if everything's different?" Our biases inform everything. I'm just honest about it.

Yeah, I can see that. At that point, it's like, what else do I have going on, do I need something to fill the time, etc? At 6 I'd start questioning that at least if it was the best it could do on a consistent basis. 5 is more of a slam dunk it's not worth it.

In the end, it only matters how much you like it. I actually really liked ENT as the time and still do. I know many thought it was boring (which is valid for them) but I loved seeing Earth starting to explore the galaxy. PIC season 2 not so much but it wasn't terrible by any means. I definitely found some aspects to enjoy. I thought the ending was particularly moving.

I actually find it interesting how people react differently to the same thing. Seeing the opposite reactions, particularly when they're well explained, can be really eye opening even if I ultimately don't agree.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, you're putting a different spin on it than what I'm meaning. I'll tend to favor pizza over spaghetti, but that's just me. If I rate a pizza and spaghetti dinner, the pizza is just going to be higher. It's nothing against spaghetti, it's just not for me. However, I could find my top rated spaghetti dinners still by looking back at the past ratings. I can still prefer pizza but have a list of the best spaghetti.

Yeah, I just look at each thing as its own thing. Pizza against pizza, spaghetti against spaghetti, Discovery against Discovery, Original Series against Original Series. At least for ratings.

When it comes to things being annoying if its happened in Trek in the past then I am far more forgiving of it in current Trek.