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Do you like ENT or not,why?

I cannot begin to express how much I object to finding an in-universe explanation for Star Trek's Eurocentric biases in its depiction of the future. If Star Trek is supposed to be an aspirational future, we should simply assume that Asia is just as well off as "the West" and that the proportion of Asians who survived is the same as anywhere else.

A big part of WHY Star Trek's future was able to move beyond and become what it did was specifically because of the horrors of the third world war. It's integral to the universe.

I tend very strongly towards the Watsonian view of fiction. Real world issues do not concern me, only what is contained in the work. Star Trek... does very much have Euro... American-centric biases. The real world reasons for those are irrelevant to me in regards to the universe being observed. Therefore, I must look for an in-universe reason.

The only real-world things I take into account are those directly related to the work, such as background information that we didn't actually get on screen/page but filled by creators.

We have no idea whatsoever what the Eastern Coalition is, canonically. The canon has never once established that it was based in Asia. For all we know, "the Eastern Coalition" might have been faction based on the East Coast of North America after the Second U.S. Civil War.

That is entirely true. There is an amount of conjecture there. Part of my basing the Eastern Coalition as being the traditionally political "East" is the depiction of Q's courtroom combined with elements from the background of ENT, in which the bird symbol of the courtroom was going to be used as the symbol for the ECON, and the general visual observation of the courtroom and it's inhabitants being vaguely Asiatic as well as being a way to reconcile the late 21st century as a time when both Earth is creating warp ships and sending out colony ships to other worlds, while ALSO being trapped in the "Post-Atomic Horror" concurrently.

Coupled with the fact that we mostly see Americans/Europeans, the organizations are all based in western nations... not to mention that we KNOW the Eugenics Wars and WW3 were, if not the same, related conflicts... and Khan ruled over much of Asia and was defeated, by observation I've extrapolated that Asia just got hit much harder than western nations did and took much longer to recover.
 
If you're implying that the Vulcans are/were imperialists and colonialists...if that were the case, why would they have helped humanity venture into the stars in the first place?

Apologies for double post. New to this forum and not used to its setup, apparently there is no edit feature?

The thing is that Earth was going into the stars regardless. Earth had warp. They were going to be out there. Now I don't really think that the Vulcans were colonialists or imperialists... ENT makes it very clear the Vulcans weren't particularly interested in expanding.

HOWEVER, they also have a vested interested in a potentially dangerous race hot off a massive world war not recklessly flinging themselves into space. I don't think the Vulcans were helping Earth get to the stars at all... the Vulcans were trying to slow us down. They were "helping" by making sure we were actually ready to go out there, but ENT seems to imply they were doing everything in their power to slow us down.
 
Frankly, given much of what we see from Archer and Trip, at least, in the early seasons of ENT, and from other humans throughout the series, I tend to think the Vulcans were right to slow humanity's progress into space. Neither of them seem particularly ready for what they're about to encounter, and Archer in particular may be the captain of Enterprise primarily due to nepotism rather than any real merit.

It reminds me of "Q Who", when Picard arrogantly asserts to Q that the Federation is ready for whatever they might encounter next...and Q promptly introduces them to the Borg.

It's very egocentric for humans to make unfounded claims that they're ready for challenges they don't even know the nature of.
 
Frankly, given much of what we see from Archer and Trip, at least, in the early seasons of ENT, and from other humans throughout the series, I tend to think the Vulcans were right to slow humanity's progress into space. Neither of them seem particularly ready for what they're about to encounter, and Archer in particular may be the captain of Enterprise primarily due to nepotism rather than any real merit.

You aren't wrong, except for maybe Archer. It does seem nepotistic, but at the same point it is demonstrated that Archer is among the top of his field. My favorite episode of the whole series, "First Flight", really shows that... and the fact that he almost didn't get the Captain's seat. Although that episode is alittle odd... they picked the Captain of a ship based on... their capabilities in a single-man test flight?

The Vulcans were correct. Humans mucked up first contact with the Klingons because we are arrogant and assume everyone thinks like us. I know a criticism of ENT was "but first contact with the Klingons was supposed to be disastrous". It was... no the Klingons didn't outright attack NX-01 immediately, but their first encounter was humans was of them condemning one of their warriors to dishonor, denying him an honorable death in battle, and appearing weak before the entire High Council by preaching peace, not showing strength. From that moment, the Klingons had no respect for Earth. Probably the ONLY reason they DIDN'T just attack Archer was that they were more concerned about the Suliban information inside of Klaang.
 
I do enjoy ENT very much.


Now saying that, I do wish it had some things differently. Some of these things they WANTED to do, but ENT was plagued with executive meddling, or otherwise it was just impractical.


I wish the ship was more cramped, more like a submarine. Apparently they toyed with the idea but it was too difficult to film. I think it would have gone a long way to making it feel less advanced.


I wish the NX-01 looked a bit different. I actually like the design, but the comparison to the Akira is undeniable. Real world, the executives like the Akira and literally just wanted them to use that. Doug Drexler fought them enough to get what we got. I wish the ship was able to be a bit more visually distinctive and perhaps a bit closer to the TOS look. (I LOVE NX-01's warp nacelles, though)


I wish that they had embraced being lower tech and just immediately throw in "Phase Cannons" and "Photonic Torpedoes". Use lasers, rail guns, and nukes. Don't have the transporter yet... or maybe make it an EXTREMELY prototype technology.

I’m sure that a primitive version of 22nd century Earth existed alongside what we saw. In ENT, we were only shown United Earth Starfleet, where everything is state-of-the-art , nothing ever malfunctions, refits and repairs only take a few months, and the crew are the best that humanity has to offer. Even for trauma, all they seemingly need to get over it is a prescription from a psychiatrist and get a boyfriend or girlfriend; counselors need not apply. The rest of Earth – generic Earth forces and the like - might not be so state of the art, and I do not see why they would need to be, as they aren’t venturing deep into uncharted space.

But if the writers aren’t going to show that side of 22nd century Earth though, with all its imperfections, best to leave it alone.

The early D7 was kind of a mistake, but I wish they could have made convincing earlier ship designs all around.

Even the D7 made sense in a way. But they poorly explained that it was a predecessor of the D7, when they could have simply said those were the Klingon Warbird mentioned in the premiere. Weak explanation for various contractions regarding continuity was always an issue in the show. When it would have been so simple to explain away.

T’POL: It’s a Klingon warbird. Kuro-class. Klingons are known to reuse certain starship designs should they attain glory in battle. This one is modelled off of a similarly designed warship called a D4 involved in a pair of first contacts. The first one a century ago, with the Ithenites. And more recently, with a species called the Orions, occurring several lightyears from the Rigel system.

ARCHER: This must be one of the warbirds the High Command warned us about.

T’POL :Luckily for us, this warbird tops out at warp 3.5.

ARCHER: Are you suggesting that we run, T’Pol?

T’POL: Considering our weapons are no match for their own, it would be logical.

The hill I WILL die on is that... "These are the Voyages" was not a bad episode, nor was it a bad finale in context. It was not just the finale of ENT. It was the end of 20 years of continuous Trek on TV. It was the end of the 90's Trek-era. I think it did a fine job of closing that out, and it made perfect sense it would end where the whole era began, in TNG. My only change is that rather than a holodeck simulation, rework it to include Q giving a final judgement on humans. Q sent Riker to these events for Q reasons, which led Q to close it out with deciding that humans are actually alright.

The concept was fine. It was just lazily done. Why they did not simply model their futures off of “Twilight” I’ll never understand. They had the random senior staff death down; they just swapped out Mayweather for Trip. Why not just go all in with the rest and show how everyone’s careers have progressed, at least?

Even for the TNG parts, why not have Riker and Troi in FC uniforms, while the rest of the crew in the background are wearing TNG and VOY uniforms and set it after NEM on a Galaxy class ship? Another thing I’ll never understand.

Q making an appearance would definitely been an interesting idea. But at the same time, the ideas weren’t the problem. It was the execution.

I cannot begin to express how much I object to finding an in-universe explanation for Star Trek's Eurocentric biases in its depiction of the future. If Star Trek is supposed to be an aspirational future, we should simply assume that Asia is just as well off as "the West" and that the proportion of Asians who survived is the same as anywhere else.

Well, for one, the same Star Trek that shows an aspirational future also says there are at least three nuclear conflicts before hand in the span on 170 years: the 1990s Eugenics War, WWIII and the Earth-Romulan war. I’m pretty sure no one aspires for nuclear war.

Next, the same SNW you cite also rectons WWIII as a conflict that partly occurred in Asia, since the Khanate that Khan ruled over would include nations across Asia, the heavily populated country of India among them, bringing it in line with TOS. Before SNW’s retcon, FC and TNG had their own retcon regarding the events described in TOS in that it was completely ambiguous that the conflict was ever in Asia. They simply said factions, implying that it was not necessarily nation-states at war, but different centralized entities. And that Asia was one of the places going through the post atomic horror. That’s it. FC and TNG approached the subject with coloblindness as well, with white drug addled soliders among Asians in a courtroom, and Lily's initial reaction to meeting Picard, Data and Beverly .

We also do not know much about how Earth recovered. Just that its far removed from the destructive excesses of 21st century capitalism. That in addition to disease and hunger, all conflicts have been settled for 40 years when the NX-01 launched. Earth’s culture seems heavily Americanized at the time of United Earth’s formation, possibly due to first contact considering both Reed and Sato lamenting the Vulcans landing in Montana instead of somewhere else on Earth, and even the freighters families met in ENT are oddly Americanized. And that the Soviet Union seems to have return by the time of TOS seeing as there’s a city named Leinigrad, meaning there is at least one Marxist-Leninist state on Earth.

I would also like to add there are likely colonies with plenty of Asians, if one considered that the early colonizers were Asian. TAS even implied that there were at least 10 Terra class space arks for this purpose. That’s at least one space ark per continent; based on content size, that’s two arks for Africa and three arks for Asia. Just because no Star Trek show ever showed these colonize doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

There was also a story idea, when TOS was still being developed, where the TOS crew would visit an Asian populated planet based off of the court of Genghis Khan. The planet was called Satunii.

And in beta canon, Ganjitsu is another Asian populated colony, which also happens to be a colony where Sulu grew up. We obviously never got to that in TOS and the TOS movies because there was never a heavily focus on Sulu. It was all Kirk, Spock and Bones, and occasionally Scotty.

I know there have been a lot of shortcoming with Asian representation, but I do not think the producers of Star Trek are prejudiced on purpose and intentionally ignore them. Maybe they just don’t want to get their cultural information wrong, like which happened with Chakotay and his heritage on VOY. Its was not that long ago that it was acceptable to say Orientals (i.e. the 1960s) in public, and nowadays its not. Its easy to see why writers would not want to risk used such dated language in Star Trek.

Please keep an open mind.

We have no idea whatsoever what the Eastern Coalition is, canonically. The canon has never once established that it was based in Asia. For all we know, "the Eastern Coalition" might have been faction based on the East Coast of North America after the Second U.S. Civil War.

While I am openminded that the ECON was not a uniformly Asian outfit and included Europeans and Americans in it, seeing as Lily nearly blew Picard away with a phaser and was resistant to Beverly to the point Lily had to be sedated. But I’m not going to assume that ECON was a American faction either. It could have been a global coalition of Augments for all we know, opposed to both America and Khan’s Khanate, and they all resided on the moon. And Lily’s encounter with Data might have interpreted by her, prior to going into shock, as her meeting with an Augment.

TPTB have always been mindful of presenting a conflict in Star Trek between China and America, not just in FC, but all the way back to TOS, where various quotes alluding to “Sino-Western troubles” were deleted from “The Corbomite Maneuver”. Feel free to look it up on MA.

I know people complain about the similarity of the NX-01 to the Akira, but is it unreasonable if the Akira was based on an older ship? I don't think the Constitution > Excelsior > Galaxy should be the only lineage

No, it’s believable, But there were opportunities to state that to the audience in the finale, and the various appearances of Daniels before that, and it was never done.

Its up to Lower Decks to address that now.
 
In ENT, we were only shown United Earth Starfleet, where everything is state-of-the-art , nothing ever malfunctions, refits and repairs only take a few months, and the crew are the best that humanity has to offer.

Yes and no. We see two almost downright ancient freighters... both appear to be roughly as comfortable as NX-01.

Even the D7 made sense in a way. But they poorly explained that it was a predecessor of the D7, when they could have simply said those were the Klingon Warbird mentioned in the premiere.

I'm something of a canon literalist, so... the ship was there. I won't just pretend it wasn't. My eyes tell me it was. But i'll go by how it's presented. It's not a D7. It's a D5, I believe mentioned in dialogue. I have no real issue with a D5 looking like a D7. I would have preferred it to look different, but it's not really a problem that it doesn't.

Next, the same SNW you cite also rectons WWIII as a conflict that partly occurred in Asia, since the Khanate that Khan ruled over would include nations across Asia, the heavily populated country of India among them, bringing it in line with TOS. Before SNW’s retcon, FC and TNG had their own retcon regarding the events described in TOS in that it was completely ambiguous that the conflict was ever in Asia. They simply said factions, implying that it was not necessarily nation-states at war, but different centralized entities. And that Asia was one of the places going through the post atomic horror. That’s it. FC and TNG approached the subject with coloblindness as well, with white drug addled soliders among Asians in a courtroom, and Lily's initial reaction to meeting Picard, Data and Beverly .

Oh yeah, please don't take it as me saying "The Eastern Coalition were bad, and everyone in it were Asian and Bad". That's not it at all. I just think... the lions share of the nuclear exchange happened in Asia. Anything specifically about the ECON is just straight up pure conjecture. I tried to piece together through what little bit of canon, or at least background, sources we have available.

If we go into speculation land... I honestly don't think that Eugenics Wars/WW3 were fought on national lines, but on ideological ones. Sort of. The TL;DR version of how I think it all went down was that the Eugenics Wars led to WW3... the Supermen took over various areas, created Empires, and were eventually defeated. WW3... is what happens when the regular, non-augment people who inherited these empires went to war with each other. I always envisioned Khan's Empire as falling apart and becoming the Eastern Coalition... which isn't just like, India and China. It's parts of India, China, Russia, Southeast Asia, Australia, parts of Eastern Europe, etc. I also think that others were drawn to it... ENT was going to expand on and show Colonel Green as being part of the ECON, who appears to be American.

BUT... back to the main point, my theory is more geographic in nature, not racial.

We also do not know much about how Earth recovered. Just that its far removed from the destructive excesses of 21st century capitalism. That in addition to disease and hunger, all conflicts have been settled for 40 years when the NX-01 launched. Earth’s culture seems heavily Americanized at the time of United Earth’s formation, possibly due to first contact considering both Reed and Sato lamenting the Vulcans landing in Montana instead of somewhere else on Earth, and even the freighters families met in ENT are oddly Americanized. And that the Soviet Union seems to have return by the time of TOS seeing as there’s a city named Leinigrad, meaning there is at least one Marxist-Leninist state on Earth.

TNG has a small reference to the Soviet Union as well, SS Tsiolovesky, according to it's dedication plaque, was launched for Baikonur Cosmodrome, USSR.

(In my head-version of the Eugenics Wars, the USSR falls in 91 through an Augment coup, but reforms after the Eugenics Wars to join with the ECON.)

I know there have been a lot of shortcoming with Asian representation, but I do not think the producers of Star Trek are prejudiced on purpose and intentionally ignore them.

This is precisely WHY I actively try very hard to leave any and all real world concerns out of talking about fiction. No, what happened is Star Trek is an American TV show, and uses primarily American actors, to appeal to an American audience. That's incredibly boring and I don't really have any interesting in talking about that, and I DEFINITELY have no interest in talking about racial issues.

I would prefer to just stick to Star Trek.

TPTB have always been mindful of presenting a conflict in Star Trek between China and America, not just in FC, but all the way back to TOS, where various quotes alluding to “Sino-Western troubles” were deleted from “The Corbomite Maneuver”. Feel free to look it up on MA.

That's a small part of what bothers me about more recent Trek (I mean, it goes back to VOY) forgetting that stuff was supposed to be happening in the 90's. I vastly preferred the alternate-timeline where we could be less concerned about real world issues. When a story is set in a world that isn't ours, it's much easier to handwave away any real-world concerns.
 
That's a small part of what bothers me about more recent Trek (I mean, it goes back to VOY) forgetting that stuff was supposed to be happening in the 90's. I vastly preferred the alternate-timeline where we could be less concerned about real world issues. When a story is set in a world that isn't ours, it's much easier to handwave away any real-world concerns.
Someday, Star Trek will decide not to try to realign with our current timeline.
 
Someday, Star Trek will decide not to try to realign with our current timeline.

It's almost kind of depressing but like, we are NOT really all that far away from first contact... I can 100% see Star Trek still existing 40 years from now.

I do have a feeling that in the relatively near future, they finally just go full-reboot. Which, if fine. I guess.
 
You have no idea how much I look forward to that day, if it ever comes.

Just as a fun worldbuilding thing in spare time, i've been working on a rebootish Trek timeline that fully embraces an alternate-20th century (and, for that matter, alternate 22nd century). It's designed to be a reboot, but still stick closely to Prime. It's like... more fleshed out, coherent Prime with some extra greeblies.
 
Just as a fun worldbuilding thing in spare time, i've been working on a rebootish Trek timeline that fully embraces an alternate-20th century (and, for that matter, alternate 22nd century). It's designed to be a reboot, but still stick closely to Prime. It's like... more fleshed out, coherent Prime with some extra greeblies.
I would be curious to read it, for sure. I think one appeal to a reboot for me (and it's not for everyone) is setting a clear timeline of events that led to First Contact and then onward from there.

Having a divergent point is more helpful and interesting to me than the reworking to reflect our real world history.

But, Trek leans very heavily on the notion that it led to cultural and technological inspiration so it tends to say our time will lead to Trek.
 
Yes and no. We see two almost downright ancient freighters... both appear to be roughly as comfortable as NX-01.

The NX-01 was a bit more spacious, and nowhere near as careworn like the freighters.

Obviously the NX-01 was a newer ship. But having FTL comms, phase cannons, and a transporter that malfunction mainly because they beamed through a storm indicates its meant to be state-of-the-art.

I'm something of a canon literalist, so... the ship was there. I won't just pretend it wasn't. My eyes tell me it was. But i'll go by how it's presented. It's not a D7. It's a D5, I believe mentioned in dialogue. I have no real issue with a D5 looking like a D7. I would have preferred it to look different, but it's not really a problem that it doesn't.

They already showed a D5 on screen in ENT though. And it definitely does not loo like a D7.

https://sleekndone.artstation.com/projects/ZG5blR

Though after DIS having two different Klingon vessels designated as a D7, who’s to say your perspective is wrong?

Initially though, at the time of original airing, the D7 was intended to be a D4. Mentally, I just treat it as the Klingon warbird that the Vulcans do mention in the pilot.

Oh yeah, please don't take it as me saying "The Eastern Coalition were bad, and everyone in it were Asian and Bad". That's not it at all. I just think... the lions share of the nuclear exchange happened in Asia.

Don’t worry. I think that too. Though some on the board think its racist. I understand why they think that. But I'm also over it, as I don't think Trek has set out to be intentionally racist.

If we go into speculation land... I honestly don't think that Eugenics Wars/WW3 were fought on national lines, but on ideological ones. Sort of. The TL;DR version of how I think it all went down was that the Eugenics Wars led to WW3... the Supermen took over various areas, created Empires, and were eventually defeated. WW3... is what happens when the regular, non-augment people who inherited these empires went to war with each other. I always envisioned Khan's Empire as falling apart and becoming the Eastern Coalition... which isn't just like, India and China. It's parts of India, China, Russia, Southeast Asia, Australia, parts of Eastern Europe, etc. I also think that others were drawn to it... ENT was going to expand on and show Colonel Green as being part of the ECON, who appears to be American.


BUT... back to the main point, my theory is more geographic in nature, not racial.

There are all sorts of interesting things regarding the Eugenics War. One took over Australia and the rest of Oceania and renamed it Maltuvisland. And another Augment who took over South America and overthrew another Augment who ruled over Mexico

TNG has a small reference to the Soviet Union as well, SS Tsiolovesky, according to it's dedication plaque, was launched for Baikonur Cosmodrome, USSR.


(In my head-version of the Eugenics Wars, the USSR falls in 91 through an Augment coup, but reforms after the Eugenics Wars to join with the ECON.)

TOS also had a reference to Stockholm, Eurasia, NE. Implying a unified European and Asian state. Star Trek does not go into Earth politics of the 23rd and 24th century. And it doesn’t need to either, imo.

This is precisely WHY I actively try very hard to leave any and all real world concerns out of talking about fiction. No, what happened is Star Trek is an American TV show, and uses primarily American actors, to appeal to an American audience. That's incredibly boring and I don't really have any interesting in talking about that, and I DEFINITELY have no interest in talking about racial issues.


I would prefer to just stick to Star Trek.

I completely agree.

That's a small part of what bothers me about more recent Trek (I mean, it goes back to VOY) forgetting that stuff was supposed to be happening in the 90's. I vastly preferred the alternate-timeline where we could be less concerned about real world issues. When a story is set in a world that isn't ours, it's much easier to handwave away any real-world concerns.

Well VOY didn’t forget, in regards to the Eugenics Wars. It’s the equivalent of time travelling to America circa 1917. There’s no war occurring on American soil, but WWI is clearly happening in Europe.

But generally I agree its better if Trek is an alternate timeline. The existence of the Eugenics Wars alone means its an alternate timeline.
 
They already showed a D5 on screen in ENT though. And it definitely does not loo like a D7.

https://sleekndone.artstation.com/projects/ZG5blR

Though after DIS having two different Klingon vessels designated as a D7, who’s to say your perspective is wrong?

Initially though, at the time of original airing, the D7 was intended to be a D4. Mentally, I just treat it as the Klingon warbird that the Vulcans do mention in the pilot.

I generally handwave the Klingon D-Ships as being a type, not a class. A D7 is a "Battlecruiser"... there can be different classes of D7/Battlecruisers.

Well VOY didn’t forget, in regards to the Eugenics Wars. It’s the equivalent of time travelling to America circa 1917. There’s no war occurring on American soil, but WWI is clearly happening in Europe.

But generally I agree its better if Trek is an alternate timeline. The existence of the Eugenics Wars alone means its an alternate timeline.

Yeah i've never been concerned about Voyager with the Eugenics Wars. 1996 was the end anyway, and they were in the US that probably didn't get hit by them.

At least. Prior to SNW. I can't help but just mostly assume DSC and SNW are in a different universe. Honestly it's better all around if they were anyway. So much more freedom for storytelling.
 
Given the existence of the Temporal Cold War, it can be argued that there is no 'original' timeline. For all we know, even TOS is the result of temporal meddling.

Yes and no. Up until SNW's confirmation, it was generally assumed that all the time travel chicanery just ended up creating the Prime Timeline.

Now... "Prime Timeline" is meaningless.
 
Given the existence of the Temporal Cold War, it can be argued that there is no 'original' timeline. For all we know, even TOS is the result of temporal meddling.
I mean, we saw that since ENT, as well as Relativity that some things get amalgamated to bring together disparate parts. Prime is the result of it, based upon the observer effect.
 
I can't help but just mostly assume DSC and SNW are in a different universe. Honestly it's better all around if they were anyway. So much more freedom for storytelling.

All five CBSAA/P+ Star Trek shows (including Short Treks) were inconsistent with each other, because continuity is not CBS’s forte. It doesn’t necessarily mean that all five shows take place in their own separate continuities, but the argument can be made for that if one chooses to view it that way. Because this is all fiction and one can interpret what they see any way they want.
 
All five CBSAA/P+ Star Trek shows (including Short Treks) were inconsistent with each other, because continuity is not CBS’s forte. It doesn’t necessarily mean that all five shows take place in their own separate continuities, but the argument can be made for that if one chooses to view it that way. Because this is all fiction and one can interpret what they see any way they want.

By the same token, one can argue that from the minute TOS first depicted time travel subsequent episodes were no longer set in the same timeline.

For that matter, especially given some of the S1 'settling in' inconsistencies, one could argue that many installments of Star Trek take place in their own timeline independent of all other installments, even if many of the installments appear to take place in very similar timelines. And the only reason I say 'many' is because there was the odd duck such as "Parallels" where Our Heroes made a point of discussing quantum signatures and such.
 
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