Spoilers The Strange New Worlds Starship Thread™

[F. King Daniel]

If taken to its logical conclusion I find this argument quickly becomes absurd. Is Star Trek: The Motion Picture in a different universe to TOS? After all, it changed the look of virtually everything from the Enterprise herself through to the Klingons, introduced the concept of a warp core as a fundamental component of warp drive and reversed Matt Jefferies' original intent that nacelles were self-contained engines and power plants, and all but reversed any character development Spock had in accepting his humanity. Is VOY in a different universe to TNG because it retconned the whole history of the Borg and the Federation? Is the TNG episode "The Host" in a different universe to DS9 because the nature and look of Trills are different? Where does this end? Are individual scenes we don't like to be consigned to alternate realities?

Not scenes.

Camera cuts.

It's the only way to fix issues like Spock and McCoy swapping uniforms in TMP, or Robau's badge vanishing and reappearing in ST'09.

Every shot is an alternate reality, and we're watching a clumsily put together sequence of similar realities.

 

[Tuskin38]

that they might as well both be considered Crossfield Classes with equal validity.

The officer that said Crossfield Class said it in a way that she wasn't sure. The tone of her voice.
I just assumed the implication was the ship gave off a signature similar to a Crossfield, or she was just guessing based off a quick glance at the saucer.

 

[HotRod]

The officer that said Crossfield Class said it in a way that she wasn't sure. The tone of her voice.
I just assumed the implication was the ship gave off a signature similar to a Crossfield, or she was just guessing based off a quick glance at the saucer.

I like to think that the fact we saw a "Crossfield" parked at the Starbase, even if it was upside down, shows us that what we saw during the episode was atleast a semi-accurate portrayal of the class.

 

[Tuskin38]

I like to think that the fact we saw a "Crossfield" parked at the Starbase, even if it was upside down, shows us that what we saw during the episode was atleast a semi-accurate portrayal of the class.

That was just a VFX error. It was confirmed the ship we saw was a Klingon made kitbash.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Which was the error? The fact that it was upside down or the fact that it was actually docked in the starbase and shouldn't have been?

 

[Dukhat]

The officer that said Crossfield Class said it in a way that she wasn't sure. The tone of her voice.
I just assumed the implication was the ship gave off a signature similar to a Crossfield, or she was just guessing based off a quick glance at the saucer.

Except the ship appeared on a diagram, and then on the viewscreen. So Mitchell saw the design clear as day and should have had no question what class it was. And Spock, who absolutely knows what a Crossfield class ship looks like, did not correct her. As you say, it’s possible that Mitchell’s confusion stemmed from things like the power signature the ship was giving off, internal components, etc. rather than the outward appearance of the ship.

Which was the error? The fact that it was upside down or the fact that it was actually docked in the starbase and shouldn't have been?

Probably the former, since I find it hard to believe that the ship was placed in the scene by accident.

 

[JRob94]

Which was the error? The fact that it was upside down or the fact that it was actually docked in the starbase and shouldn't have been?

Oh good, I’m not the only person wondering that

 

[137th Gebirg]

Except the ship appeared on a diagram, and then on the viewscreen. So Mitchell saw the design clear as day and should have had no question what class it was. And Spock, who absolutely knows what a Crossfield class ship looks like, did not correct her. As you say, it’s possible that Mitchell’s confusion stemmed from things like the power signature the ship was giving off, internal components, etc. rather than the outward appearance of the ship.

My guess is (and always was) that the transponder signature of the stolen ship still officially registered as Crossfield. Mitchell's confusion stemmed from the fact that it didn't look like a Crossfield on the scans or visual images.

Probably the former, since I find it hard to believe that the ship was placed in the scene by accident.

Agreed. Perhaps it was a really old "prototype" or "experimental" design that still registered as Crossfield, or that the Discovery, Glenn and their contemporaries are upgraded/refit Crossfields that still hold the same name, much in the way that the Refit Enterprise and her contemporaries are still viewed by some as Constitution-class, vs Enterprise-class, vs Constitution-II, etc., yet still look markedly different ("almost an entirely new Enterprise") from their predecessors of the same class. It's such an old prototype design, Mitchell didn't recognize it, but perhaps Spock did (being basically a walking computer with an eidetic memory and didn't even think to question the ship's different configuration).

There are a lot of ways one can shoehorn these two seemingly different ship designs together in the same class without too many mental gymnastics. My question is, why do such a thing to make such discussions necessary, then add to the confusion by making not-very-good-explanation explanations that only muddy the waters further? They really should know us by now... WE DON'T LET SHIT GO!!!!

 

[fireproof78]

They really should know us by now...

They don't.

 

[Dukhat]

Not to mention that it would have been easier and more logical for the Klingons to have just stolen the ship in question rather than make a ship out of different parts in a configuration that didn’t represent an actual class. I mean if their intent was to fool someone into believing it was an actual Starfleet vessel, why slap something together that didn’t actually resemble a legitimate class ship? Mitchell’s confusion could have stemmed from knowing the ship in question was reported lost and/or destroyed rather than making her look stupid and not knowing what a Crossfield class ship looks like.

 

[137th Gebirg]

It was definitely a needless blunder that could have been easily avoided by some small dialogue changes. Probably a situation where the filming of lines and intended post-production assets were WAY out of sync. Kind of like when the Stargazer was supposed to be a Connie, but they changed Geordi's lines to say Constellation in post once they realized that a different filming miniature was built for "The Battle", based on Picard's shelf model.

They don't.

Guys like Drexler and Okuda do. The noobs in charge of making such decisions maybe not so much.

 

[fireproof78]

Guys like Drexler and Okuda do. The noobs in charge of making such decisions maybe not so much.

Allow me to rephrase: the people in charge do not.

They don't learn. Why? Because they move around from project to project. It's reactionary at best when fans point out something, and then move on. They don't have the time to go frame by frame like we do, nor do they approach Star Trek as fans do.

It's a completely different approach from fans to producers.

 

[137th Gebirg]

At least it's not as outlandish as the whole Stargazer business, where some confusion stemmed from some lines of dialogue early in PIC S2 implying that the Stargazer we saw was, in fact, a refit of Picard's original Stargazer. To make matters worse, Terry Matalas said this (from MA):

"Like the TMP Enterprise, it's a massively updated refit. I like to think of it as the story of the broom: If one day you replace the handle, and another day the brush, is it still the same broom? We thought of it as a vessel endlessly repaired and upgraded, brought in-line with current-future tech, so that somewhere underneath all the lights and polish are the bones of Picard's original ship. Does it make sense? I don’t know. But I sure like the spirit of it."

Of course, this doesn't take into account the whole idea of metal fatigue and other damage suffered by "the bones" of the ship and its spaceframe, starting with Maxia. All that said, the model of the PIC Stargazer in the lounge says Sagan class. I don't recall catching this when it came out, but now that I read it, it really makes no flipping sense.

 

[fireproof78]

At least it's not as outlandish as the whole Stargazer business, where some confusion stemmed from some lines of dialogue early in PIC S2 implying that the Stargazer we saw was, in fact, a refit of Picard's original Stargazer. To make matters worse, Terry Matalas said this (from MA): That said, the model of the PIC Stargazer in the lounge says Sagan class. I don't recall catching this when it came out, but now that I read it, it really makes no flipping sense.

Good grief, what the actual did I just read?

I'm all for fan contortions that are mildly entertaining as far as in universe justification. Pretty sure that's what fans do. But this one? This takes the Ship of Thesus problem and says "Hold my beer."

 

[137th Gebirg]

Precisely. Some things are best left dead and buried.

 

[Dukhat]

At least it's not as outlandish as the whole Stargazer business, where some confusion stemmed from some lines of dialogue early in PIC S2 implying that the Stargazer we saw was, in fact, a refit of Picard's original Stargazer. To make matters worse, Terry Matalas said this (from MA): Of course, this doesn't take into account the whole idea of metal fatigue and other damage suffered by "the bones" of the ship and its spaceframe, starting with Maxia. All that said, the model of the PIC Stargazer in the lounge says Sagan class. I don't recall catching this when it came out, but now that I read it, it really makes no flipping sense.

Matalas clearly doesn’t understand the definition of ‘refit.’

 

[drt]

Matalas clearly doesn’t understand the definition of ‘refit.’

He obviously doesn't, since he basically repeated the mistake with Titan-A a year later.

 

[Macintosh]

Matalas clearly doesn’t understand the definition of ‘refit.’

To be fair neither does Star Trek in general – the original Enterprise's famous refit was actually a retrofit in current naval or aircraft parlance.

 

[fireproof78]

It's almost like it's all made up...

 

[Macintosh]

It's almost like it's all made up...

So in the next series of Strange New Worlds when Spock uses the Force to prevent a warp core breach because it's something he learned while a student at Hogwarts that's all fine because it's all made up too, right?