Spoilers Secret Invasion grade and discussion

[Reverend]

Yeah, but like Reverend noted, they didn't say where the source images are from. If they were legit, wouldn't they have said where?

Right. The burden of evidence is on them. Unless and until they prove otherwise, it's entirely fair to assume they're profiting off of stolen work, the same as any other machine learning image generator. Based on what they've said, I'm not convinced.

I think people who don't understand the underlying technology massively underestimate the sheer volume of images it takes for these things to work.
Indeed one of the creators of these things is on record saying that they're essentially useless without skimmed data (and he thinks that in and of itself constitutes justification after the fact.)

 

[FPAlpha]

Yeah, I'm not sure if fridging really applies here, she did have quite a bit of agency here, and had played a pretty signifcant role up to her death. I was under the impression fridging was more of when the character had no real agency, and her sole role in the story was to die as motivation for the male lead, I'm not really sure that really applies here.

Has she though? Since her introduction she's always been Fury's right hand woman, taking orders from and was just present at major events but she never influenced them in any measurable way. She got to have a cool professional manner, had a couple of fights and got some heroes out of tight spots but we never learned more about her in any form.

As much as i like Smulders and Hill for her coolness/badass appearance she could have been easily left out and the movies she were in wouldn't have been impacted that much. Her character was always dependent on Fury, she mostly appeared with him or was sent by him to do something - to me that is the very definition of fridging.

It just seemed to me that the writers simply didn't know what to do with her across all the movies, there just was this character from the comics that Marvel felt needed to be in the movies but in the end she "was just there". Which is why her death nevery truly impacted me because there is no emotional or any other kind of attachment to her unlike Natasha Romanoff's death for example.

 

[Turtletrekker]

They wanted enough land for their entire displaced species. So they want to trigger a Nuclear War which will leave a Radioactive planet only they can survive on.

Now why they want to do this to EARTH specifically, we don't know yet.

Because they can grow their own produce here.

 

[Dee1891]

Got some "Flag Smashers" flashbacks with the Skrull encampment.

I knew there was something familiar about the Skrulls in this series. They almost seemed like a rehash of the Flag Smashers from "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier".

Agent Hill wasn't a romantic interest of Fury's. It wasn't "fridging."

A character doesn't have to be a romantic interest in order to be killed. According to a website called "Unusual Things", the actual definition of fridging is the following:

"Character fridging is the use of a secondary or tertiary character as a plot device to motivate a primary character by cause of brutally killing, maiming, or otherwise harming said secondary/tertiary character. Usually done by an antagonist, but not always."

I would say Maria Hill qualifies.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Seems more like a way to make Fury "Public Enemy Number One".

 

[Reverend]

Because they can grow their own produce here.

There must be a million uninhabited planets in the galaxy where that's also possible. There really needs to be a VERY good reason why after thousands of years of being chased from one end of the universe to the other they'd suddenly get very eager to settle on a backwater planet planet and displace it's eight billion primitives, and it can't be just about the veggies (unless the veggies are also drugs.)
I thought maybe it's because Earth is the one place the Kree Empire won't dare touch? Seems as though the only reason that would be true is because of Carol, and murdering her whole species would rather invalidate that reason for all concerned.

I'm not expecting any massive revelation here; I suspect they won't even bother coming up with a compelling reason beyond "because otherwise we won't have a show", but I hope they do.

 

[Tuskin38]

I would say Maria Hill qualifies.

As would Coulson in Avengers 1 using this definition. Since your definition doesn't specify female character.

 

[Anwar]

A character doesn't have to be a romantic interest in order to be killed. According to a website called "Unusual Things", the actual definition of fridging is the following:

"Character fridging is the use of a secondary or tertiary character as a plot device to motivate a primary character by cause of brutally killing, maiming, or otherwise harming said secondary/tertiary character. Usually done by an antagonist, but not always."

I would say Maria Hill qualifies.

So does that mean Martha Wayne is a Woman in a Fridge?

 

[Commander Troi]

Cathrynne Valente (who is an amazing writer) did a series of interconnected short stories about fridged women called The Refrigerator Monologues. They are all based on comic book characters like Gwen Stacy and Jean Grey.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So does that mean Martha Wayne is a Woman in a Fridge?

And Lara, Martha Kent, Mary Grayson, Alice Clayton, Kala...

 

[Reverend]

I think what irks me most about the misuse of the "fridging" term is that when people start applying it every time a female character is killed regardless of context, it rather trivialises genuine instances when female characters were done dirty.
For those not away; check out the publication character history for Carol Danvers. Some of that is beyond messed up; Like, shoving her in a fridge would have been preferable!
Ever wonder what inspired Jessica Jones' backstory? Look no further . . .

So does that mean Martha Wayne is a Woman in a Fridge?

Only because said fridge was too small to fit Thomas Wayne in there too. They had to leave him out to spoil.

Cathrynne Valente (who is an amazing writer) did a series of interconnected short stories about fridged women called The Refrigerator Monologues. They are all based on comic book characters like Gwen Stacy and Jean Grey.

Does Jean Grey really count though? I mean is it really a fridging when they keep pulling her out of that thing, over and over? Though of course they also keep shoving her back into it too, which seems less about how women in fiction are treated and more how comic books treat second or third tier characters in general over the course of decades. Though I suppose in Jean's case they ended up calling her 'Phoenix' so I guess that counts as an out.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Does Jean Grey really count though? I mean is it really a fridging when they keep pulling her out of that thing, over and over? Though of course they also keep shoving her back into it too, which seems less about how women in fiction are treated and more how comic books treat second or third tier characters in general over the course of decades. Though I suppose in Jean's case they ended up calling her 'Phoenix' so I guess that counts as an out.

As a comic book literature expert (seriously, I took classes on it--as if my degree could get more worthless), Jean Grey actually falls under a related trope that is "Women Crazy with Power." Which is where a female character gains a lot of power and then goes insane or becomes a monster.

* Jean Grey
* Wanda Maximoff
* Madelyn Pryor
* Raven
* Mary Marvel (during her ill-conceived dominatrix phase)
* Magick

It's also a measure of quality versus quantity as Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch, and so on are among the most famous female comic characters and yet their stories are all about them going nuts. X-men and the Avengers most famous characters being, well, "women who kill their own teammates after going nuts."

 

[Anwar]

As a comic book literature expert (seriously, I took classes on it--as if my degree could get more worthless), Jean Grey actually falls under a related trope that is "Women Crazy with Power." Which is where a female character gains a lot of power and then goes insane or becomes a monster.

* Jean Grey
* Wanda Maximoff
* Madelyn Pryor
* Raven
* Mary Marvel (during her ill-conceived dominatrix phase)
* Magick

It's also a measure of quality versus quantity as Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch, and so on are among the most famous female comic characters and yet their stories are all about them going nuts. X-men and the Avengers most famous characters being, well, "women who kill their own teammates after going nuts."

The sad thing is, Jean more or less started that trend because of how historical it was to have a female character do it. Now it's become an industry standard.

Which is partly why Dark Phoenix doesn't adapt well, the original story just isn't that good anymore.

 

[Reverend]

As a comic book literature expert (seriously, I took classes on it--as if my degree could get more worthless), Jean Grey actually falls under a related trope that is "Women Crazy with Power." Which is where a female character gains a lot of power and then goes insane or becomes a monster.

* Jean Grey
* Wanda Maximoff
* Madelyn Pryor
* Raven
* Mary Marvel (during her ill-conceived dominatrix phase)
* Magick

It's also a measure of quality versus quantity as Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch, and so on are among the most famous female comic characters and yet their stories are all about them going nuts. X-men and the Avengers most famous characters being, well, "women who kill their own teammates after going nuts."

In Jeans case, I always just got the sense that she's just one of those characters that nobody really knew what to do with. The giveaway is often a seemingly endless succession of costume redesigns, codename changes, dramatic arcs that don't actually go anywhere, typicall being extreme for extreme's sake (including deaths.) Hell, the fact that's she's best known as her actual name rather than superhero name says allot. "Marvel Girl" never really stuck, and Phoenix is too inexorably tied to that particular storyline.

But yes, it does seem to happen to female characters more often than not, which just shows that there's a lot of writers out there that don't really understand how to write women . . . shockingly most of them seem to be men.

Honestly I'm curious to see how the MCU chooses to handle her. At this point, they should probably steer well clear of Dark Phoenix, and maybe just stick with regular Phoenix.

 

[Anwar]

In Jeans case, I always just got the sense that she's just one of those characters that nobody really knew what to do with. The giveaway is often a seemingly endless succession of costume redesigns, codename changes, dramatic arcs that don't actually go anywhere being extreme for extreme's sake (including deaths.) Heel, the fact that's she's best known as her actual name rather than superhero name says allot. "Marvel Girl" never really stuck, and Phoenix is too inexorably tied to that particular storyline.

But yes, it does seem to happen to female characters more often than not, which just shows that there's a lot of writers out there that don't really understand how to write women . . . shockingly most of them seem to be men.

Honestly I'm curious to see how the MCU chooses to handle her. At this point, they should probably steer well clear of Dark Phoenix, and maybe just stick with regular Phoenix.

The hilarious thing is that the MCU already did a great version of the Dark Phoenix Saga with Wanda. Better than anything FOX did.

Jeans' problem is the same one Cyclops had. After they brought both of them back in the 80s, no one really knew what to do with them because the main X-Men writer writing the main book (Chris Claremont) wanted to write the "All New X-Men" more than the classic characters. So for the latter half of the 80s and all of the 90s Cyclops was just "Hardass Leader who clashes with Wolverine a lot" with no real storylines. That's why he was so bland in the movies, at the time they were written he hadn't been a relevant character in years.

It wasn't until the mid 2000s Cyclops got his renaissance, and Jean herself only in the last...5 years I think?

 

[Reverend]

The hilarious thing is that the MCU already did a great version of the Dark Phoenix Saga with Wanda. Better than anything FOX did.

Jeans' problem is the same one Cyclops had. After they brought both of them back in the 80s, no one really knew what to do with them because the main X-Men writer writing the main book (Chris Claremont) wanted to write the "All New X-Men" more than the classic characters. So for the latter half of the 80s and all of the 90s Cyclops was just "Hardass Leader who clashes with Wolverine a lot" with no real storylines. That's why he was so bland in the movies, at the time they were written he hadn't been a relevant character in years.

It wasn't until the mid 2000s Cyclops got his renaissance, and Jean herself only in the last...5 years I think?

I'll take your word for the latter; the most recent Marvel comic I've read was I think the first or second X-23 solo run, so at least a decade out of touch, if not more.
And yeah, speaking as someone that grew up with the 90's animated X-Men; both Scott and Jean always seemed to just hang around, not doing much of interest . . . at least until the whole Phoenix thing kicked off, then it just got weird. I honestly never understood the whole hellfire club thing.

 

[Anwar]

I'll take your word for the latter; the most recent Marvel comic I've read was I think the first or second X-23 solo run, so at least a decade out of touch, if not more.
And yeah, speaking as someone that grew up with the 90's animated X-Men; both Scott and Jean always seemed to just hang around, not ding much of interest . . . at least until the whole Phoenix thing kicked off, then it just got weird. I honestly never understood the whole hellfire club thing.

The Hellfire Club was an attempt at giving the X-Men new recurring enemies, but they never took off that well as a group (though Emma and Sebastian Shaw worked out separately). Later on Mr Sinister was introduced and worked out better (sort of, he's an awful character but readers liked him).

As for Scott and Jean, I think these sum up their 90s portrayals well:

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[Charles Phipps]

The Hellfire Club was an attempt at giving the X-Men new recurring enemies, but they never took off that well as a group (though Emma and Sebastian Shaw worked out separately). Later on Mr Sinister was introduced and worked out better (sort of, he's an awful character but readers liked him).

As for Scott and Jean, I think these sum up their 90s portrayals well:

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Ironically, Mr. Sinister is basically a reminder of the Magneto inverse. Which is to say that it's nice to have a deep rich morally ambiguous character but Mr. Sinister is always good for a thoroughly disgusting mad scientist and complete monster. He also fits into their milieu by being a eugenicist.

Famke Janssen's Jean Grey actually had a lot more going for her in the first movie by being Xavier's right hand and the X-men's public relations unit--but they ran eagerly into the phoenix business, just making it straight up brain damage.

It should also be noted that Doctor Strange and The Multiverse of Madness is heavily criticized in feminist fandom circles (there's a lot of them online) as much worse than Wandavision's take on it.

The reasoning for it being basically boiled down to:

1. It's a Doctor Strange movie, not a Scarlet Witch or Scarlet Witch and Vision movie
2. Doctor Strange's alternates flat out destroy universes and other stuff but Wanda is treated as irredeemable
3. Doctor Strange had a similar arc of being driven mad by magic but his evil self ends up redeemed as well
4. The story writes her out perfunctorily at the end.

 

[Reverend]

That Dr. Strange movie had a lot of problems. Throwing Wanda's character and story under the bus is just a symptom of much more fundamental issues.

The Hellfire Club was an attempt at giving the X-Men new recurring enemies, but they never took off that well as a group (though Emma and Sebastian Shaw worked out separately). Later on Mr Sinister was introduced and worked out better (sort of, he's an awful character but readers liked him).

I got what they were supposed to be. The part that confused me is why anyone thought a bunch of stuffy werido snobs with major 'Eyes Wide Shut' vibes (yes I know that movie came much later) was even slightly interesting (or appropriate!) for this kind of franchise. I remember watching those episodes as a kid and being thoroughly bored just looking at them.

As for Sinister; he had a memorable design, I'll give him that, but very one-note next to the likes of Magneto.

 

[Charles Phipps]

That Dr. Strange movie had a lot of problems. Throwing Wanda's character and story under the bus is just a symptom of much more fundamental issues.

I got what they were supposed to be. The part that confused me is why anyone thought a bunch of stuffy werido snobs with major 'Eyes Wide Shut' vibes (yes I know that movie came much later) was even slightly interesting (or appropriate!) for this kind of franchise. I remember watching those episodes as a kid and being thoroughly bored just looking at them.

As for Sinister; he had a memorable design, I'll give him that, but very one-note next to the likes of Magneto.

As a thirteen year old, the Hellfire Club ladies were certainly memorable.