Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x02 - "Ad Astra Per Aspera"

[Paul Weaver]

Geordi did eventually get the visor changed to ocular implants starting with FC. Which raises a whole other series of questions.

The visor was clearly a security risk, both earlier, in "The Minds Eye", where it was used as a conduit to controlling him as a sleeper assassin, then later in Generations where it was responsible for the loss of the flagship

Another thing I noticed is that the Federation ban is worded to outlaw "permanent" modifications. So, presumably, if the modifications are temporary, that might fly under Federation law.

they do genetic modifications all the time in Trek -- including in the SNW pilot

The Federation thinks the Prime Directive is a cool and possibly the best idea ever. It's safe to say that the Federation doesn't always think twice before codifying a law.

They also empower their captains to set taht law aside when it's the right thing to do. Not to do it lightly, but the sheer number of times we saw Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway breaking the prime directive, just like we know Pike and April have done, shows that the law is the start, not the end.

 

[Yistaan]

It also emphasised how starship captains choose to break the highest federation laws in specific circumstances to do the right thing, and the brass agrees with those choices. The law isn't inflexible, if it needs to be broken, then it must be.

Kelvin Kirk got demoted in Star Trek Into Darkness for doing the exact same thing that April is described as doing here, with the Pike of that universe chewing him out while presumably the Pike of this universe was fine with April's actions.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

You're bound to get yourself into trouble when you are tampering with things you haven't thought about the long-term consequences on.

A telling example currently is social media. Move fast and break things is all well and good when you're a young idiot. Now, Silicon valley tech bros won't allow their own children to use social media (while still aggressively marketing it to ours).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Bottom line is that the Ilyrians are doing nothing wrong and are bring persecuted.

Access to medical services, "cosmetic" or not, is none of the Federation government's business to criminalize. Fuck them.

Lets suspect that the Ilyrians had that Homogeneity problem the court talked about.

They had to start interbreeding with non-modified humans almost immediately or each generation would be more deformed than the last. Obviously the real problem was segregation if their only route to survival was integration.

 

[fireproof78]

The Federation thinks the Prime Directive is a cool and possibly the best idea ever. It's safe to say that the Federation doesn't always think twice before codifying a law.

The Federation and Starfleet are demonstrated time and again to be reactive rather than proactive. If something goes wrong, if there is a bad encounter, if someone dies, then the rules get tightened down to ensure that thing can never go bad again. Be it technological, a diplomatic encounter or even a medical procedure something going wrong pretty much means that it's decided by leadership to prevent it from happening again.

It's funny to me to read some of the arguments, and the trap that we are falling in to with the Federation is the same one that happens with other Trek races. The Federation is treated as one monolithic entity, getting information and deciding unilaterally that this thing equals bad. Except these are not decisions made by one entity. It's leaders who are getting reports after the facts, and the problems that occurred and are trying to make sure it never happens again. Some might be more understanding, while others are hardliners. But, at the end of the day, they have to react, just like in real life, to make a show of taking a problem seriously.

At the individual ship level this might not make sense. But, from a leadership standpoint, reading after action reports and trying to sort out the diplomatic fallout? Yeah, I can see how a Federation council member would vote for unilateral action to prevent a problem.

they do genetic modifications all the time in Trek -- including in the SNW pilot

Emphasis on the "temporary" part of those modifications.

 

[Uhura's Song]

There's flawed and there's willingly siding with a law that would destroy a friend. If Iron Man tosses Spider-Man in the Negative Zone, I don't consider him a hero either.

Your are conflating his admitting he wouldn't have admitted an augment to SF with him wanting her punished now. Those are not the same things. It is like you skipped the scene with Pike completely. He wanted to testify positively about her character and was pissed he was not able to.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Gagarin Research Station shows that the Federation clearly ignores the genetic resequencing and engineering laws when it sees fit and can do so in relative quiet. Sure, that Season 2 TNG episode was produced about nine years before "Doctor Bashir I Presume?(DS9)" but, hey, it's part of the continuity and thus is best explained as the UFP only enforcing a law when it's publicly convenient and serves the bureaucracy to do so. Which, hey, fine, Section 31's very existence belies the utopian democratic image of the Federation as well as Starfleet so this isn't Trek's first trip to the hypocrisy rodeo. But amusing nonetheless.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Federation thinks the Prime Directive is a cool and possibly the best idea ever. It's safe to say that the Federation doesn't always think twice before codifying a law.

The Prime Directive is not Federation Law, it's a Stafleet Regulation.

Harry Mudd, or any other UFP citizen should be able to abuse prewap cultures to their hearts delight, unless there is a comparable law in the Federation legal code, or in the legal codes of the member worlds, or interstellar law.

 

[Citiprime]

They also empower their captains to set that law aside when it's the right thing to do. Not to do it lightly, but the sheer number of times we saw Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway breaking the prime directive, just like we know Pike and April have done, shows that the law is the start, not the end.

That's also true about the genetic engineering ban. It's not an absolute, since Starfleet always seems to find a way to make an exception when it's needed.

 

[Citiprime]

The Gagarin Research Station shows that the Federation clearly ignores the genetic resequencing and engineering laws when it sees fit and can do so in relative quiet. Sure, that Season 2 TNG episode was produced about nine years before "Doctor Bashir I Presume?(DS9)" but, hey, it's part of the continuity and thus is best explained as the UFP only enforcing a law when it's publicly convenient and serves the bureaucracy to do so. Which, hey, fine, Section 31's very existence belies the utopian democratic image of the Federation as well as Starfleet so this isn't Trek's first trip to the hypocrisy rodeo. But amusing nonetheless.

A government can make something illegal for its citizens (e.g., possessing nuclear weapons or nuclear material) but it's legal for the government to both possess and pursue research with the same material.

 

[cooleddie74]

True. Still doesn't make it any less awkward when the time comes to prosecute those offenders. The Federation probably knows that genetic engineering is unlikely to pose a threat to the stability much less existence of the organization but like all good and entrenched bureaucracies is either unwilling to budge and change the law or takes its sweet time doing so.

 

[fireproof78]

True. Still doesn't make it any less awkward when the time comes to prosecute those offenders. The Federation probably knows that genetic engineering is unlikely to pose a threat to the stability much less existence of the organization but like all good and entrenched bureaucracies is either unwilling to budge and change the law or takes its sweet time doing so.

I mean, changing a law is a lot of work and forms. You better have a damn good reason for interrupting my Tellarite Solitaire game.

 

[cooleddie74]

A Tellarite will just argue and shout until the bureaucrat gives up and goes on to something else just to shut that Tellarite up.

 

[eschaton]

It's interesting that other near-future and far-future scifi of note also have genetically engineered humans as a matter of course. In Foundation, they serve only on spacecraft for example. Trek kind of missed the boat

I think it's important to note there was nothing in TOS to suggest that Khan and the augments were created by genetic engineering. The whole "Eugenics Wars" thing was implied to be by selective breeding (the old Nazi way) IIRC.

There were TNG episodes (such as the Masterpiece Society) that showed genetic engineering widely used by isolated colonies without tremendous stigma as well. It's really just the decision to make Bashir into an augment that all of this flowed from.

 

[eschaton]

I think one of the challenges of GE is that it removes the rights of the child, or embryo, at whatever stage they are at. Especially, it deligitimises certain people born in a certain way, by essentially removing the traits that make them who they are - thus ensuring that person doesn't exist - a decision made before birth, perhaps even before conception. It can create a form of eugenics, therefore.

I am no ethicist, but Genetic Engineering is a minefield - and one which in trek world is magnified by the sheer magic power of Trek's technology.

It is also comparable to General Order One - but in a way the show didn't draw a line to. Non-interference is the guiding principle of the federation, to not interfere with those at a more 'innocent' stage, but GE is interference with such innocents to reach an agreed end.

Challenging, and certainly something I am not sure I know any answers too.

Children never have any say in being born, or who their parents are. And crude-level eugenics are being used right now. Sperm/egg banks list things like height, race, hair color, and highest level of education. Unsurprisingly, people want donor gametes from tall, highly-educated people who look similar to them.

More advanced genetic engineering is of course done pretty often these days as well. Most IVF involves embryo selection, which discards zygotes which look bad due to chromosomal issues, and some pre-implantation genetic screening is being done for certain diseases.

 

[BK613]

Damn fine episode. Wonderful guest star.
----
Some folks upthread seemed confused at Una's objection to her initial lawyer—i.e., 'he works for you' . I thought it was because he was wearing a Starfleet uniform, not because he was a actual subordinate of the prosecutor.

 

[Citiprime]

Children never have any say in being born, or who their parents are. And crude-level eugenics are being used right now. Sperm/egg banks list things like height, race, hair color, and highest level of education. Unsurprisingly, people want donor gametes from tall, highly-educated people who look similar to them.

More advanced genetic engineering is of course done pretty often these days as well. Most IVF involves embryo selection, which discards zygotes which look bad due to chromosomal issues, and some pre-implantation genetic screening is being done for certain diseases.

But some of that is random chance. If a parent forces personal characteristics onto their child, how is that arguably any different than a parent in the here and now that might force a gender onto a child or a sexual orientation?
.
I think Deep Space Nine presents the flip-side of this episode, where Bashir's treatment by his parents leaves him resentful of a father and mother who didn't accept him for he was.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And that Vulcan admiral.What’s his beef?
Christ,if he’s a Romulan plant with his own agenda I will put my boot through the tv.

He’s a Vulcan with a very black and white view of the Universe. Probably put down Sarek behind his back for marrying Amanda,

 

[cooleddie74]

Some Vulcans are bigots and pricks. Logic doesn't mean you're suddenly pleasant to be around.

 

[Greg Cox]

I think it's important to note there was nothing in TOS to suggest that Khan and the augments were created by genetic engineering. The whole "Eugenics Wars" thing was implied to be by selective breeding (the old Nazi way) IIRC. .

True, the idea that Khan and company were genetically-engineered dates back to THE WRATH OF KHAN, not "Space Seed."

It was what we would now call a retcon, which worked because the dialogue in "Space Seed" is vague enough to allow for that interpretation.