Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[Campe]

First, does any of this actually matter if you’re entertained?
Second, we’re Star Trek fans. We’ve explained away James R. Kirk, Vulcanians, UESPA, non-spotted Trills, and many, many other things that don’t work exactly right. If continuity is so important and you’ve stretched yourself into pretzels making the first 50 years of Star Trek fit together, then why can’t you make this work?

 

[CorporalClegg]

It doesn't actually matter even if we're not entertained.

Just a thought exercise, really.

 

[Campe]

It doesn't actually matter even if we're not entertained.

Just a thought exercise, really.

That’s why I made my second point.

 

[fireproof78]

The military reenactment guys can get really detail obsessed, wouldn't put the thread thing past some of them. As for the dresses, its my understanding that when worn correctly historic dresses can be surprisingly comfortable/temperature appropriate. Hollywood writers, actresses, and costume designers aren't a good sample for judging this sort of thing.

However, I have no first hand experience about that.

My wife made dresses based around 1800s style. Using lightweight cotton and appropriate layers kept her very comfortable despite being long sleeve.

 

[The Wormhole]

does any of this actually matter if you’re entertained?

I'm a Star Trek fan. I don't believe in being entertained.

 

[Yistaan]

The IDW Star Trek Annual comic book just came out, with the characters having yet another Trek holodeck malfunction that shifts them through various time periods of the NCC-1701. Although this comic book isn't canon (despite what the writer's been saying at conventions), the holodeck first goes to the TOS Enterprise and then shifts to Pike's Enterprise as seen in Discovery/Strange New Worlds, and Pike's Enterprise is explicitly described in dialogue to be "how the ship looked before the refit for Kirk's 5 year mission" or something along those lines.

So at least in regards to licensed material, some people are treating the TOS Enterprise as yet another refit that explains the change from Strange New Worlds. It still doesn't explain how Q&A, Cage, then Disco/SNW has the ship going from 21st century look, 1960s look, then back again but it's better than nothing.

 

[Tallguy]

What continuity problems does SNW REALLY have to deal with? There are certain alien races that you might not want to run into because we've seen the "first encounter" elsewhere. But who are the audience (or the writers) just really champing at the bit to show? Do we need a Ferengi episode THAT bad? Trill? No, you can't do Romulan episodes. Deal with it.

But they decided to do the Gorn. Fine. But why the Gorn? They're not very reminiscent of TOS. Couldn't there have been another reptilian race? We'll never hear of them again, but then we barely ever heard of the Gorn again.

Characters: Pike. It's his ship. And he's why we're making the show. Spock: Kind of the same deal with Pike. Number One: More of the same.

Spock, we know a little bit about. But not THAT much. Unless you pull other characters out of TOS, you shouldn't have much to run into. Pike, almost nothing. Number One, even less. Hell, give her a name.

THEN we get into "Star Trek canon is so CONSTRICTING. It keeps us from telling good STORIES. So lets grab a bunch of characters that the audience has no expectation to see, won't act or look like their predecessors, and then be affronted when people notice."

M'Benga: Doesn't look or act like the fellow from TOS. But they're both black. There couldn't be TWO black doctors on the Enterprise, right? Great character and if they'd just given him a different name, who would care?

Chapel: Pretty much the same as M'Benga. There is nothing tying these characters together other than a name. And a relationship with Spock. Would this character lose anything by not being a legacy character? And again, there's like TWO things to know about Christine Chapel: She went into space to find her fiance and she has an unrequited relationship with Spock. Those shouldn't be TOO hard to avoid, right? Oh. We're shipping the hell out of her and Spock? Hmm.

Uhura: Oddly, the least "canon-y" problematic of the existing crew. There really isn't anything to avoid, is there? And it's fun to see her be awesome. Other than maybe...

Sam Kirk: It would actually be kind of cool to have had Sam, if we didn't have three other characters who seemed rather unaffected by his death if they had been close shipmates. It would have been fine if it was just Spock, I suppose.

And finally: James Tiberius Kirk. Why is he going to be on this show? It might be awesome. It might not be. But we have a whole new show that's about "Before Kirk". Why are we adding Kirk? Again, this isn't "complicated" or "convoluted" continuity. You have to watch ONE episode to know everything about Kirk and Pike. They met once. Which isn't hard to avoid unless you REALLLLLLLY want Kirk on your show. (Again, it might be a lot of fun. But I bet there were other fun things they could have done.)

They had a whole ship to cast, and out of the main characters NOT from TOS they gave us La'an, Erica, and Hemmer (a little bit).

Lengthy post, but the point is that the writers are complaining about problems with CANON. (Or even just continuity.) Most of their conflicts are their own problem. They can tell all the stories they want to. They just can't use the same names. Why was that so hard.

Did anyone say "They're making a Pike show? That might be OK, but I REALLY wish they could add Nurse Chapel!"

(Admission against interest: Christine is my second favorite character after Pike.) (Maybe not so much against interest: If she was anything like the original Chapel she wouldn't be my second favorite character.)

This is my second favorite Star Trek show ever, but to hear the writers / show runners complaining about how hard continuity is feels a little disingenuous.

 

[Yistaan]

What continuity problems does SNW REALLY have to deal with? There are certain alien races that you might not want to run into because we've seen the "first encounter" elsewhere. But who are the audience (or the writers) just really champing at the bit to show? Do we need a Ferengi episode THAT bad? Trill? No, you can't do Romulan episodes. Deal with it.

But they decided to do the Gorn. Fine. But why the Gorn? They're not very reminiscent of TOS. Couldn't there have been another reptilian race? We'll never hear of them again, but then we barely ever heard of the Gorn again.

Characters: Pike. It's his ship. And he's why we're making the show. Spock: Kind of the same deal with Pike. Number One: More of the same.

Spock, we know a little bit about. But not THAT much. Unless you pull other characters out of TOS, you shouldn't have much to run into. Pike, almost nothing. Number One, even less. Hell, give her a name.

THEN we get into "Star Trek canon is so CONSTRICTING. It keeps us from telling good STORIES. So lets grab a bunch of characters that the audience has no expectation to see, won't act or look like their predecessors, and then be affronted when people notice."

M'Benga: Doesn't look or act like the fellow from TOS. But they're both black. There couldn't be TWO black doctors on the Enterprise, right? Great character and if they'd just given him a different name, who would care?

Chapel: Pretty much the same as M'Benga. There is nothing tying these characters together other than a name. And a relationship with Spock. Would this character lose anything by not being a legacy character? And again, there's like TWO things to know about Christine Chapel: She went into space to find her fiance and she has an unrequited relationship with Spock. Those shouldn't be TOO hard to avoid, right? Oh. We're shipping the hell out of her and Spock? Hmm.

Uhura: Oddly, the least "canon-y" problematic of the existing crew. There really isn't anything to avoid, is there? And it's fun to see her be awesome. Other than maybe...

Sam Kirk: It would actually be kind of cool to have had Sam, if we didn't have three other characters who seemed rather unaffected by his death if they had been close shipmates. It would have been fine if it was just Spock, I suppose.

And finally: James Tiberius Kirk. Why is he going to be on this show? It might be awesome. It might not be. But we have a whole new show that's about "Before Kirk". Why are we adding Kirk? Again, this isn't "complicated" or "convoluted" continuity. You have to watch ONE episode to know everything about Kirk and Pike. They met once. Which isn't hard to avoid unless you REALLLLLLLY want Kirk on your show. (Again, it might be a lot of fun. But I bet there were other fun things they could have done.)

They had a whole ship to cast, and out of the main characters NOT from TOS they gave us La'an, Erica, and Hemmer (a little bit).

Lengthy post, but the point is that the writers are complaining about problems with CANON. (Or even just continuity.) Most of their conflicts are their own problem. They can tell all the stories they want to. They just can't use the same names. Why was that so hard.

Did anyone say "They're making a Pike show? That might be OK, but I REALLY wish they could add Nurse Chapel!"

(Admission against interest: Christine is my second favorite character after Pike.) (Maybe not so much against interest: If she was anything like the original Chapel she wouldn't be my second favorite character.)

This is my second favorite Star Trek show ever, but to hear the writers / show runners complaining about how hard continuity is feels a little disingenuous.

The sad part is they jettisoned Colt, Jose Tyler, and Boyce needlessly and had a blank slate with them. Although I still think Boyce should show up later to reveal he's still on the Enterprise and just isn't CMO anymore, to foreshadow M'Benga's fate.

 

[Tuskin38]

They're not very reminiscent of TOS.

We know nothing of them from what one episode.

 

[fireproof78]

But they decided to do the Gorn. Fine. But why the Gorn? They're not very reminiscent of TOS. Couldn't there have been another reptilian race? We'll never hear of them again, but then we barely ever heard of the Gorn again.

Neither were the Gorn in the MU. The idea is that they are a blank slate, savage and willing to kill. Why not explore that more?

M'Benga: Doesn't look or act like the fellow from TOS. But they're both black. There couldn't be TWO black doctors on the Enterprise, right? Great character and if they'd just given him a different name, who would care?
Again, it's not a need, it's a desire to fill out previously seen characters. A prequel shouldn't go "Oh, yeah I knew that." A prequel is a way to say "Oh, I never knew that. That's interesting." And M'Benga offers that opportunity since he is a blank slate. He did a residency on Vulcan. That's it. That's the character.
Chapel: Pretty much the same as M'Benga. There is nothing tying these characters together other than a name. And a relationship with Spock. Would this character lose anything by not being a legacy character? And again, there's like TWO things to know about Christine Chapel: She went into space to find her fiance and she has an unrequited relationship with Spock. Those shouldn't be TOO hard to avoid, right? Oh. We're shipping the hell out of her and Spock? Hmm.

Again, probably not, but opportunity for drama.

Why was that so hard.

Why? Because they fear the fan base so damn much. If they did all new characters the questions would invariably come up (and do even on this BBS): Where is Chapel? Where's Kirk? And they still get it because "Where's Tyler? Where's Boyce?" have not been addressed so there is no winning here. They went with the more familiar, or the ones who would invariably show up in TOS because that has enough recognition for the fan base to grab on to.

It's not enough and never will be enough to satisfy. There is little they can do without running in to the demands for the familiar while demanding something new.

 

[Mudd]

I don't see many "writers complaining about canon," at all. When people who work on these shows talk about or respond to questions about canon matters, they default to:

• "We're aware of continuity questions, and we do everything we can to tell good stories while being respectful of it;" or
• "From time to time we nudge/tweak/have to interpret the canon in certain ways that we hope the fans will embrace when they see the show;" or
• "Everything will fit together in the end, you'll see."

Who really "complains about canon?" Fans complain about canon. They complain that the writers have misled them, often by having made some of the statements I paraphrased above. They complain that the writers are ignorant of all kinds of important shit. They call the writers "lazy" for being insufficiently observant of the minutiae. They demand to know why the writers did this story or included that character when right over here, next to the wall and fallen down behind the couch, there's this little bit of trivia from Episode 104 that would have served just as well without violating "the spirit of canon." And if the writers do use something beloved out of the past they'll be told that they should have left that sacred bit of continuity alone and invented something or someone new for this story because now It's Ruined Forever.

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[Tallguy]

We know nothing of them from what one episode.

We know that nobody had heard of a Gorn. People in SNW all have a definite reaction when they hear the word. Everyone in Arena (including Uhura) doesn't bat an eye.

Not a big deal, no. But it's a problem with writing prequels. If it had been a reptilian race called the Nrog then it wouldn't be an issue.

Any advantage to using the name goes away after the first time you hear it, because there's nothing else to build on. As you say, they're in ONE episode. Is anyone tuning in for the episode when SNW and Arena really link up?

I suppose we can look at the Gorn the way that DS9 did the Trill (nearly nothing to do with how they were introduced other than there is a slug living inside someone).

Why? Because they fear the fan base so damn much. If they did all new characters the questions would invariably come up (and do even on this BBS): Where is Chapel? Where's Kirk? And they still get it because "Where's Tyler? Where's Boyce?" have not been addressed so there is no winning here. They went with the more familiar, or the ones who would invariably show up in TOS because that has enough recognition for the fan base to grab on to.

It would have been nice to get more of Pike's established crew, sure.

Again, was there really a section of the audience who was on the fence about this show until they found out that Chapel was in it?

 

[fireproof78]

We know that nobody had heard of a Gorn.

We don't know that. That's an assumption.

Is anyone tuning in for the episode when SNW and Arena really link up?

Sure. I like Arena.

Again, was there really a section of the audience who was on the fence about this show until they found out that Chapel was in it?

Yes, probably so. @Serveaux illustrates the issue perfectly. The idea of doing something new is only appealing in so far as it connects to the old. So, they look at the past and find characters that are largely unexplored and decide to add depth to them while still being familiar touchstones to the audience in some way, and TOS is the biggest draw.

Few, aside from the hardcore fans, are going to care about Boyce, Tyler or the Cage crew. I do, but that's me. I liked Pike (that's my bumper sticker idea; you can't have it!) since I was 10. But, as I said, Trek is not catering to me. Trek is catering to broad appeal, either through legacy connections or leading in to legacy connections. Yes, I imagine someone was on the fence until they saw Chapel or someone else they liked was in it. Why? Because Star Trek fandom is about circling the can on wagons in to the smallest possible circle.

 

[Mudd]

Contrary to popular belief, people who create these things do a good deal of thinking about how the characters they put into these shows will fit and interact with others being created, and the stories they want to tell about those characters.

I imagine - and that is the operative word - that Chapel represented a chance to have a character who could get close to Young Spock and cause interesting tension for and with him, without inventing and having to explain yet another never-mentioned important relationship from the past.*
The other existing candidate would have been Leila Kalomi, who couldn't have been made a member of the core cast without twisting fan preconceptions** even more out of joint.


*I mean, he's already acquired an estranged brother and secret sister over the years.
**Which they'd have called "lazily disrespecting canon."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If what's happening is that SNW Chapel is a substitution for TOS Chapel, I'm OK with that. SNW Chapel is infinitely more interesting. If things can't be improved, if the idea is that all the faults of the original must be slavishly reiterated, then the franchise may as well be dead.

 

[Tallguy]

We don't know that. That's an assumption.

"I'm engaged in personal combat with a creature apparently called a Gorn." That does not imply recognition. He might not see the big lizard and say "That must be a Gorn!" But once he has heard the name, he should know what this is about.

In TOS Kirk is Starfleet's number two bookworm. If the Gorn are recognized as any kind of threat or danger Kirk would be aware.

As we've seen in SNW the Enterprise has been attacked by the Gorn twice in the space of a year resulting in the death of crew including the chief engineer. His own brother has been attacked by these guys. Pike didn't need to have it explained what the Gorn were. Neither has anyone else, it seems. This isn't some culture that most of Starfleet seems to be unaware of.

"Gorn... Gorn... Why does that name ring a bell?"

 

[Mudd]

They've changed that, yep.

It's a line of dialogue that no story or plot point turns on. Nothing that happens or doesn't in "Arena" would be different if the Gorn were simply mysterious and encounters were infrequent.

Frankly, knowing what we know now, the fact that Kirk showed mercy in that instance elevates him even more.

So, chuck it in the bin with "women can't be captains" - far more egregious, even then - Romulans without warp drive and "James R. Kirk."

 

[fireproof78]

"I'm engaged in personal combat with a creature apparently called a Gorn." That does not imply recognition. He might not see the big lizard and say "That must be a Gorn!" But once he has heard the name, he should know what this is about.

In TOS Kirk is Starfleet's number two bookworm. If the Gorn are recognized as any kind of threat or danger Kirk would be aware.

As we've seen in SNW the Enterprise has been attacked by the Gorn twice in the space of a year resulting in the death of crew including the chief engineer. His own brother has been attacked by these guys. Pike didn't need to have it explained what the Gorn were. Neither has anyone else, it seems. This isn't some culture that most of Starfleet seems to be unaware of.

"Gorn... Gorn... Why does that name ring a bell?"

It's not like Kirk had all this time to piece it together. The Gorn as a upright starship commander might not fit his expectations.

Does it fit perfectly? No, but I can work with it.

And this doesn't mean "no one" knows.

 

[Yistaan]

"I'm engaged in personal combat with a creature apparently called a Gorn."

This phrasing could be handwaved due to, in-universe, the TOS Gorn also not being anything like SNW Gorn and Kirk recognizing that.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Lengthy post, but the point is that the writers are complaining about problems with CANON. (Or even just continuity.) Most of their conflicts are their own problem. They can tell all the stories they want to. They just can't use the same names. Why was that so hard.

Did anyone say "They're making a Pike show? That might be OK, but I REALLY wish they could add Nurse Chapel!"

(Admission against interest: Christine is my second favorite character after Pike.) (Maybe not so much against interest: If she was anything like the original Chapel she wouldn't be my second favorite character.)

This is my second favorite Star Trek show ever, but to hear the writers / show runners complaining about how hard continuity is feels a little disingenuous.

It didn't seem like they were complaining at all to me! It seemed like they said it was challenging and kind of fun figuring out how to work within and around it. And it is fun. Probably way more fun than early TNG with Roddenberry's dictates about no conflict in the utopian future (although, he was right about how men wouldn't be bald except by choice).