When did the Janeway hatred truly start to coalesce?

[Ragitsu]

To perhaps answer far too earnestly, I have never met anyone who wasn’t nursing a wound of some sort so protective behavior such as overcompensation is to be expected. Interacting with others presses on less of my own metaphorical bruises if I maintain a belief that every harsh word hides a vulnerability. Even if someday I am proven wrong in that assumption, treating everyone with compassion helps me live the life I want.

A sensible philosophy, if for no other reason than it mitigates much interpersonal conflict. That said, it seems logical that there would be a proportionally greater amount of...hm..."posturing"?...among those with a proportionally greater amount of responsibility (and leadership of hundreds certainly fits the bill!).

 

[Guy Gardener]

A sensible philosophy, if for no other reason than it mitigates much interpersonal conflict. That said, it seems logical that there would be a proportionally greater amount of...hm..."posturing"?...among those with a proportionally greater amount of responsibility (and leadership of hundreds certainly fits the bill!).

There was a Commander on Board, who was not the first Officer, who was never seen on camera.

Lt Commander Josiah Edward Bartlet.

Possibly Section 31, definitely Starfleet Intelligence.

He was really in charge of the mission.

Janeway was just there to take the blame when Jed started doing war crimes with those Tricolbalt Devices.

But he probably did not survive the trip to the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Ragitsu]

The following gripe is not born of hate, but annoyance. In "Year of Hell", there's a scene where an alteration to time results in a deceased crew member on Voyager's bridge; following this tragedy, a few lines are exchanged between two ships (i.e., Voyager and a Krenim cruiser) and then Mulgrew ends the scene by saying...

This is turning into the Week of Hell.

I understand that - in a crisis - emotions must be compartmentalized in order to avoid mistakes, but this was different. Someone (director? writer?) wanted Janeway to remain unflappable and they decided the best way to indicate this was to have the character deliver a quasi-one-liner. I can't imagine Kirk, Picard, Sisko or Archer expressing even that level of indifference when one of their own has been killed under ten feet away.

 

[Oddish]

Someone (director? writer?) wanted Janeway to remain unflappable and they decided the best way to indicate this was to have the character deliver a quasi-one-liner. I can't imagine Kirk, Picard, Sisko or Archer expressing even that level of indifference when one of their own has been killed under ten feet away.

Especially when you compare it to Janeway's reaction to the death of a shipmate in "Scientific Method". Yes, she was already under extreme stress, but she outright loses it.

 

[Farscape One]

Especially when that episode was DIRECTLY before "YEAR OF HELL".

It really helped illustrate just how inconsistently Janeway was written. (Or an even worse example, within the SAME episode: "EQUINOX, PART II". She spends the entire episode going Ahab on Ransom, but at the end when he contacts her, she goes, "He may forgotten he was a Starfleet officer, but now he remembers." Or words to that effect.)

 

[Oddish]

That may be why I've enjoyed watching Janeway in "Prodigy". It's nice to see such a great character in the hands of competent showrunners.

And if we see more of Chakotay, and Harry shows up as well (as Garrett Wang implied might happen), maybe we can see their potential unlocked, too.

 

[Ragitsu]

Warts and all, Oddish; going by canon, Janeway is an unpredictable individual.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Warts and all, Oddish; going by canon, Janeway is an unpredictable individual.

Not really.

She is the worst almost constantly.

The unpredictable thing is that any adversary who knows about Starfleet, expects he to react to confrontation like a Starfleet Officer.

 

[Farscape One]

In other words, Janeway was more of a loose cannon than all the other captains. Possibly all of them combined.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In other words, Janeway was more of a loose cannon than all the other captains. Possibly all of them combined.

Janeway may just be a libertarian.

 

[Oddish]

Warts and all, Oddish; going by canon, Janeway is an unpredictable individual.

Unpredictable behavior can work. An unpredictable personality, not so much. Unless you're Ezri Dax, then it's almost expected.

The unpredictable thing is that any adversary who knows about Starfleet, expects [her] to react to confrontation like a Starfleet Officer.

And she usually does.

In other words, Janeway was more of a loose cannon than all the other captains. Possibly all of them combined.

Nothing wrong with being a loose cannon. As long you're not a loose cannon one minute and straight-laced the next, and your flexible interpretation of the rules serves a greater good.

 

[Ragitsu]

Janeway may just be a libertarian.

Preposterous: Janeway believes in roads.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kathryn agreed to feed human beings to Space Dolphins.

Kathryn gave advanced tech to the Hirogin that almost destroyed them because they were too dumb to use that tech ethically.

Janeway teamed up with the Borg to pick on an innocent species just defending itself.

 

[Ragitsu]

Janeway teamed up with the Borg to pick upon an innocent species just defending itself.

When she wondered aloud about making a deal with the devil, I wanted the camera to pan left so we could see John Rhys-Davies' mouth agape.

 

[Oddish]

Kathryn agreed to feed human beings to Space Dolphins.

Kathryn gave advanced tech to the Hirogin that almost destroyed them because they were too dumb to use that tech ethically.

Janeway teamed up with the Borg to pick on an innocent species just defending itself.

Well, in her defense...
1. The humans were mass murderers, who had betrayed Voyager with the express intent of committing additional murders.
2. Janeway couldn't have known the Hirogen would create sentient holograms, which are kind of a bad idea when you think about it. How many times did the EMH almost destroy himself? Three that I can think of.
3. When you run around saying that a galaxy must be purged of all life, certain misunderstandings do happen.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Kathryn agreed to feed human beings to Space Dolphins.

Kathryn gave advanced tech to the Hirogin that almost destroyed them because they were too dumb to use that tech ethically.

Janeway teamed up with the Borg to pick on an innocent species just defending itself.

I dunno, 8472 seemed pretty happy to attack non-Borg, as well as Borg. It's the devil you know versus the devil you don't. Maintaining the Delta Quadrant status quo by dealing with the Borg is a better outcome than neutralitym and therefore, an eventual 8472 victory.

 

[Farscape One]

With the exception of the Borg and Voyager, we never saw Species 8472 attack anyone else. They thought Janeway, and by extension the Federation, was working with the Borg. That was why they were ready to invade the Alpha Quadrant in "IN THE FLESH".

8472 did say our galaxy will be purged, but considering it was a telepathic signal to the nearest receiver, Kes, who was on Voyager, we don't really know if they would have made good on that threat.

Clearly 8472 attacking us never happened, otherwise we likely would have heard something about them in PICARD season 1 or 2, or even PRODIGY or LOWER DECKS.

I think the Borg poked the bear, got a good thrashing for it, and once Voyager used those weapons and later talked with them, 8472 was content to just stay in their own realm.


Bottom line, I will always call the decision Janeway made to make a deal with the Borg a selfish, bad one. Even at the time before she had all the information, she could have worked on those nanoprobes on the side while 8472 deals the Borg more and more damage, ultimately helping out the Delta Quadrant... and the galaxy.

 

[Oddish]

With the exception of the Borg and Voyager, we never saw Species 8472 attack anyone else. They thought Janeway, and by extension the Federation, was working with the Borg. That was why they were ready to invade the Alpha Quadrant in "IN THE FLESH".

If I remember right, their plan was to infiltrate Starfleet and assess how much of a threat to them the Federation was. I think that upon realizing that (1) Starfleet was an exploratory and scientific organization, (2) the Federation really meant what it said about being peaceful, and (3) we share a mutual enemy in the Borg... there would have been no invasion. Not if the rest of 8472 was as reasonable as the ones from "In the Flesh".

Bottom line, I will always call the decision Janeway made to make a deal with the Borg a selfish, bad one. Even at the time before she had all the information, she could have worked on those nanoprobes on the side while 8472 deals the Borg more and more damage, ultimately helping out the Delta Quadrant... and the galaxy.

That is true, and Janeway had to face that. I wish that "Night" had shown her haunted about that, rather than just standing her crew.

In the end, though, remember that in "Endgame", Admiral Janeway dealt the Borg a truly devastating blow on her own.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I dunno, 8472 seemed pretty happy to attack non-Borg, as well as Borg. It's the devil you know versus the devil you don't. Maintaining the Delta Quadrant status quo by dealing with the Borg is a better outcome than neutrality and therefore, an eventual 8472 victory.

An 8472 Victory is the heartiest delight of Starfleet, the extermination of a cretinous species at war with the wholesome Federation.

Kes translated poorly, and deserved fifty lashes.

Actually, generally for corporal punishment a human being is whipped across their back, but Ocampa have their genitals between their shoulder blades, so tying her down and strapping her back, seems a little excessive.

Where should Kes be whipped, so that she knows she is a bad girl, but it doesn't draw the attention of Starfleet Security: Special Victims Unit?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, in her defense...
1. The humans were mass murderers, who had betrayed Voyager with the express intent of committing additional murders.
2. Janeway couldn't have known the Hirogen would create sentient holograms, which are kind of a bad idea when you think about it. How many times did the EMH almost destroy himself? Three that I can think of.
3. When you run around saying that a galaxy must be purged of all life, certain misunderstandings do happen.

1. Starfleet has the death penalty for one reason, going to Talos IV, but even so, that's after a day of court, and the execution is most assuredly using a prescribed humane method, that is not being fed to wild animals.
2. Which is why sharing technology with unapproved assholes is general order Number One.
3. Did they even say that? Kes thought they did, but she was wrong. Later we found out that what was really said was "Your galaxy will be purged of the Borg and their allies." which sounds like a gift. Don't you like gifts? 8472 were just space Santa, and you know it.