Spoilers Did Picard finally ''right the ship'' with Picard season 3?

[NCC-73515]

Now that it's over: Yes.

 

[Lynn Minmay]

I would EASILY rewatch season 3…don’t think I could say the same about the first two seasons.

 

[Supervisor 194]

I have already rewatched season three, and have watched the last two episodes multiple times.

I don't see myself rewatching seasons one or two ever.

 

[Sci]

From Terry Matalas's interview with Den of Geek:

There is knee jerk criticism of this kind of thing in big pop-culture franchises, with some armchair social media critics determined to write things off for “too much fan service” or “nostalgia bait.” For Matalas, this argument feels “lazy,” because with something as massive as Star Trek, it’s not just about Easter eggs and throwbacks, it’s simply the fact that the franchise has been around for five decades.

“If you ever sit down with somebody who’s 83, if you ever sit down with somebody who’s 46, we spend a lot of time talking about the past,” Matalas says. “Star Trek is 56 years old now.”

He continues, “If you go into somebody’s house and they’ve lived there for 56 years, do you point at everything on their walls and their furniture and the music they listen to and say, ‘Member Berries!’ Or is that just the world that they lived in, you know? I get that there may be some people who have that point of view, but you know, when you have this many people responding to it in some way, I don’t think you can thumb your nose at this stuff.” ... Matalas points out that for all the nostalgia, nothing about Picard season 3 was crafted to simply retell stories that had already been told.

“Nobody wanted to make TNG season 8,” he stresses. “None of these actors wanted to play their characters from that series. They wanted to play them differently and changed from the decades. They wanted to play them challenged and damaged and different, the way that [older] human beings are in their 70s and 80s."​

I think Matalas and co. are broadly good writers, and I think they succeeded in establishing how the TNG characters had changed over the years. But, they did, nonetheless, end up retelling some stories that had already been told. So much of Jack's arc resembles Soji's in S1 -- the previously-unknown scion of a TNG character, raised in secret away from the rest of society, with astonishing super-abilities who is on the run from murderous aliens for reasons related to the secret of their origins. Shaw's arc resembles a fusion of Rios's arc (Starfleet officer with a traumatic past that alienated him from others) and Maddox's (initially bigoted against a principal character, then overcomes his bigotry and earns redemption). Much of the Changeling infiltration arc is just a re-tread of DS9 episodes dealing with Dominion infiltration. Geordi's arc is one we've seen many times before -- the father with a relationship with his daughter that's been strained by him not accepting how her goals don't match his. Data's arc, such as it is, feels like a re-tread of GEN giving him an emotion chip. The Borg Queen's plot resembles a Dalek or Cybermen plot from Doctor Who.

These are not all bad decisions, mind you! Not everything has to be completely original. But particularly the nearly-identical arcs of Jack and Soji really stick out to me.

 

[TerryTrek]

I gotta quote the hilarious Redlettermedia review for Episode 10.

Terry somehow managed to put right what once went wrong.

He fixed all the problems with the way Nemesis ended off the TNG crew, salvaged many of the storylines from Chabon's run, and somehow successfully managed to build a satisfying conclusion for the TNG characters that the fans would accept.

This wasn't an easy task. I've never seen a genre series make such a turnaround from fans unanimously disliking it, to thoroughly enjoying it.

 

[fireproof78]

I have already rewatched season three, and have watched the last two episodes multiple times.

I don't see myself rewatching seasons one or two ever.

Season 1 is still my preferred one.

 

[The Wormhole]

He fixed all the problems with the way Nemesis ended off the TNG crew, salvaged many of the storylines from Chabon's run, and somehow successfully managed to build a satisfying conclusion for the TNG characters that the fans would accept.

In your opinion.

 

[James Cole]

He fixed all the problems with the way Nemesis ended off the TNG crew, salvaged many of the storylines from Chabon's run, and somehow successfully managed to build a satisfying conclusion for the TNG characters that the fans would accept.

This wasn't an easy task. I've never seen a genre series make such a turnaround from fans unanimously disliking it, to thoroughly enjoying it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say ALL problems, but it is a remarkable accomplishment. He managed to build something well received atop layers of quicksand. And while season 1 seems to have a lot of love on this board, season 3 has done much better in terms of critical reviews, positive engagement on social media, and brought back many legacy fans who'd been burned by earlier NuTrek with Abramsverse and Kurtzman's earlier efforts.

 

[hellojane]

I
He fixed all the problems with the way Nemesis ended off the TNG crew, salvaged many of the storylines from Chabon's run, and somehow successfully managed to build a satisfying conclusion for the TNG characters that the fans would accept.

The only thing he fixed is that he ended them all in a happier place. It's satisfying because they're happy, not because of any sort of great writing achievement.

If the barometer for "fixing all the problems" is everyone is happy in the end, then sure it was a massive success. But I don't think he did anything great character wise with any of the characters, outside of Riker and Troi (and even that was more playing off something from season 1 and the actors). I think most of them stayed basically exactly where we left the last time we saw them (albeit older or in different places in their lives) or actually came out looking worse (Beverly for example). That's not a success character wise for me. I'm mostly happy with the season and enjoyed it, but as we get some distance from it, I think we should be calling out some of the poor character work and the nostalgia blinders. Multiple things can be true at once- you can think it was a good season for the most part, but have serious issues with it.

And what did he salvage from the first two seasons? Before it was that this season was the best ever because he "ignored" the storylines of the other two. Now it's that he actually salvaged the storylines from them. Which is it?

And while season 1 seems to have a lot of love on this board, season 3 has done much better in terms of critical reviews, positive engagement on social media, and brought back many legacy fans who'd been burned by earlier NuTrek with Abramsverse and Kurtzman's earlier efforts.

Season 1 has an 86% on Rotten Tomatoes with 254 critic reviews. Season 3 has a 98% with only 98 reviews. That's not very balanced review wise and would definitely be much closer if they had opened Season 3 review wise to all major outlets.

 

[TerryTrek]

In your opinion.

Not mine, the majority of fan reactions and reviews online. Nearly everyone is praising for what he's done here.

The only thing he fixed is that he ended them all in a happier place. It's satisfying because they're happy, not because of any sort of great writing achievement.

If the barometer for "fixing all the problems" is everyone is happy in the end, then sure it was a massive success. But I don't think he did anything great character wise with any of the characters, outside of Riker and Troi (and even that was more playing off something from season 1 and the actors). I think most of them stayed basically exactly where we left the last time we saw them (albeit older or in different places in their lives) or actually came out looking worse (Beverly for example). That's not a success character wise for me. I'm mostly happy with the season and enjoyed it, but as we get some distance from it, I think we should be calling out some of the poor character work and the nostalgia blinders. Multiple things can be true at once- you can think it was a good season for the most part, but have serious issues with it.

And what did he salvage from the first two seasons? Before it was that this season was the best ever because he "ignored" the storylines of the other two. Now it's that he actually salvaged the storylines from them. Which is it?

I'll talk about the characters. As for what he salvaged, the list is long. I'd recommend you watch the RLM Review to understand what they meant by that.

Picard - Went from a passive, traumatized shell of his former self from the earlier seasons https://ca.startrek.com/news/the-humbling-of-admiral-picard to assertive, driven and very much a return to form for his character.

Riker and Troi - were saddled with the grief storyline in S1. Terry used that as a way of building believable conflict between Picard and Riker, and their relationship with their sons. And managed to repair Riker and Troi's characters as they put themselves in a place where they are ready to leave Retro Prairie Hipster planet and go through a rebirth of sorts. He gave Troi agency in solving the Crusher mystery and then saving Riker and co, while redemption for flying the 1701-D. In S1, they didn't know what to do with Troi. She was literally standing on a soapbox and lecturing down to Picard in a condescending manner about his privilege.

Data - They brought him back in a way that actually progresses his character forward

Beverely, Geordi and Worf are quite different from their TNG selves. They've evolved quite a bit. Gates mentioned that Terry has given her the most to work with in her entire run with the character. Geordi (as per Levar) is portrayed in a much more flattering and respectable light here than his TNG days. And Worf has found inner peace.

Matalas got the TNG characters in a way that many before him did not. And it shows by the cast praise for him and audience/fan praise for this season. It worked.

 

[fireproof78]

Picard - Went from a passive, traumatized shell of his former self from the earlier seasons

He did that in the seasons too. Where is the praise for that?

The praise is because of the warm fuzzies. That cannot be ignored.

Not mine, the majority of fan reactions and reviews online. Nearly everyone is praising for what he's done here.

So what? Why does the majority matter so much? Do you not have an opinion of your own? Or is it all whatever the majority says? Because that's not something I find very encouraging.

 

[hellojane]

Not mine, the majority of fan reactions and reviews online. Nearly everyone is praising for what he's done here.

Who cares what "the majority" thinks? And "nearly everyone" when searching social media and other places brings up a lot of people having issues with the story? Just once, I'd like for someone that's deep in the "omg best season ever!" sphere to tell me what exactly was so well written and great about this season besides it basically amounting to "we got TNG season 8".

Picard - Went from a passive, traumatized shell of his former self from the earlier seasons https://ca.startrek.com/news/the-humbling-of-admiral-picard to assertive, driven and very much a return to form for his character.

Yes, because what we want is no character growth or for people to change. We want Picard exactly as he was when he was 25 years younger three decades ago.

Riker and Troi - were saddled with the grief storyline in S1. Terry used that as a way of building believable conflict between Picard and Riker, and their relationship with their sons. And managed to repair Riker and Troi's characters as they put themselves in a place where they are ready to leave Retro Prairie Hipster planet and go through a rebirth of sorts. He gave Troi agency in solving the Crusher mystery and then saving Riker and co, while redemption for flying the 1701-D. In S1, they didn't know what to do with Troi. She was literally standing on a soapbox and lecturing down to Picard in a condescending manner about his privilege.

Saddled with? You mean given a grief story that actually served a purpose and added some depth to their characters? One of things I've appreciated most about these seasons of Picard was how they handled the Rikers' grief for the most part, having been through the loss of my sister when I was a child. As for the rest, they told a story about the sons that basically left out the two women in the situation and barely took into account that Riker has a daughter when he thought he was going to die (she can get mentioned elsewhere a bunch of times, but I guess who cares about her when Riker is waxing poetic about grief). The Retro Prairie Hipster digs were corny, while not unrealistic for them as a couple, and you would hope the writers would be above that. Judging by interviews, Marina Sirtis thinks the Nepenthe stuff is the best material she ever got and a brief look around the Internet and you see a lot of people agreeing with her. Sure their love for each other saved the day but that was going off a connection and story that's been building since the show began. Terry didn't invent them loving each other lol.

Beverely, Geordi and Worf are quite different from their TNG selves. They've evolved quite a bit. Gates mentioned that Terry has given her the most to work with in her entire run with the character. Geordi (as per Levar) is portrayed in a much more flattering and respectable light here than his TNG days. And Worf has found inner peace.

How did Beverly evolve? Give me some examples other than she got good at tactical. Her entire arc was showing back up with a kid she kept away from Picard for reasons that barely made sense and then standing around delivering exposition. I'll give you Geordi. They're going to have to do better than Worf is zen now and makes jokes for me to consider that any real growth.

 

[fireproof78]

Who cares what "the majority" thinks? And "nearly everyone" when searching social media and other places brings up a lot of people having issues with the story? Just once, I'd like for someone that's deep in the "omg best season ever!" sphere to tell me what exactly was so well written and great about this season besides it basically amounting to "we got TNG season 8".

Yes, please.

Yes, because what we want is no character growth or for people to change. We want Picard exactly he was when he was 25 years younger three decades ago.

This is actually the case with fictional characters from what I read. Heroes are to be static, placed in stasis until needed.

 

[TerryTrek]

He did that in the seasons too. Where is the praise for that?

The praise is because of the warm fuzzies. That cannot be ignored.

Picard in command, assertive and taking charge multiple times this season does the character far more justice than him being told to 'shut the fuck up' by Admiral lady or mope about how his mother 'hung herself'

So what? Why does the majority matter so much? Do you not have an opinion of your own? Or is it all whatever the majority says? Because that's not something I find very encouraging.

Individual opinions matter much less than how the season is received overall by majority audiences/fans/critics. The later may actually inspire more Terry Matalas Trek in the future.

You can acknowledge that you dislike a season but recognize that you're in the vast minority and have an unpopular opinion.

 

[fireproof78]

Picard in command, assertive and taking charge multiple times this season does the character far more justice than him being told to 'shut the fuck up' by Admiral lady or mope about how his mother 'hung herself'

Wow. That ignores all that happened in those seasons. I don't like season 2 but seriously? That's all that was the take away?

Picard deserves "justice?" No, no character does.

You can acknowledge that you dislike a season but recognize that you're in the vast minority and have an unpopular opinion.

Have I ever stated anything else? I asked for your opinion, the opinions of those on this board, not the opinion of the nebulous majority, or the "audience" (as others have alluded to). Let me be quite blunt: I don't care about the majority opinion. As @hellojane asked please say what was good about the story, not that the majority liked it. Otherwise, Terry should go direct Transformers 6 because it made so much money and was popular. Majority opinion =/= is not discussion and I care less and less about it because it actually tells me only two things: jack and shit.

 

[TerryTrek]

Wow. That ignores all that happened in those seasons. I don't like season 2 but seriously? That's all that was the take away?

Picard deserves "justice?" No, no character does.

He definitely does, for his final adventure. To believe otherwise is a rather cynical take. Majority fans wanted the ship to be righted with Picard and they got it.

Have I ever stated anything else? I asked for your opinion, the opinions of those on this board, not the opinion of the nebulous majority, or the "audience" (as others have alluded to). Let me be quite blunt: I don't care about the majority opinion. As @hellojane asked please say what was good about the story, not that the majority liked it. Otherwise, Terry should go direct Transformers 6 because it made so much money and was popular. Majority opinion =/= is not discussion and I care less and less about it because it actually tells me only two things: jack and shit.

Calm yourself.

That was in regards to the person that posted "in your opinion." I was referring to how this season has been received overall in that discussion, not to anyone's specific individual opinion.

And yes, if you want to bury your head in the sand about how well this season is being received, that's fine as well : )

 

[fireproof78]

He definitely does, for his final adventure. To believe otherwise is a rather cynical take. Majority fans wanted the ship to be righted with Picard and they got it.

Fictional characters are fictional. They don't deserve anything.

And yes, if you want to bury your head in the sand about how well this season is being received, that's fine as well.

Avoiding the question. I see it will not be answered to any measure of satisfaction.

The majority opinion will not change mine. Never has, never will.

 

[TerryTrek]

Fictional characters are fictional. They don't deserve anything.

The fans who are invested in them deserve it and they got the payoff with Picard's closure.

Avoiding the question. I see it will not be answered to any measure of satisfaction.

The majority opinion will not change mine. Never has, never will.

That's a lovely irrelevant sentiment There was no motivation in the posts above to sway your opinion.

 

[fireproof78]

The fans who are invested in them deserve it and they got the payoff with Picard's closure

No one deserves anything in fiction save entertaining content. Otherwise I'm starting #justiceford'Artagnan campaign.

That's a lovely irrelevant sentiment There was no motivation in the posts above to sway your opinion.

Then why the constant championing of the majority?

 

[Farscape One]

He definitely does, for his final adventure. To believe otherwise is a rather cynical take. Majority fans wanted the ship to be righted with Picard and they got it.



Calm yourself.

That was in regards to the person that posted "in your opinion." I was referring to how this season has been received overall in that discussion, not to anyone's specific individual opinion.

And yes, if you want to bury your head in the sand about how well this season is being received, that's fine as well : )

I've made it a point of pride to not have the same opinion as the masses because, quite honestly, a vast majority of people have a sheep/lemming mentality. Just look at some of the popular reality tv shows out there. Oh, boy...

The fact that sometimes my opinion is similar to a number of people... just coincidence as far as I'm concerned.

I guess my point is you can agree with the masses, or don't agree with them. But let it be why you feel that way, not because the same opinions are on an endless loop.

If you really think Matalas was the second coming for ST, great. But just be sure it's what YOU feel, not just parroting others. (And I am not saying you don't believe it yourself, just posing the scenario to ask yourself.)

For me, I absolutely LOVED season 3. I put it right behind SNW in terms of current live action. But my reasons may be different than the majority of people. I don't know... I'm not a social media guy.