Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x07 - "Dominion"

[Racefuel]

That was months later.

Kirk could only suspect if Kurge was under Orders to steal Genesis.

I don't think we can speculate as to the time delay or Klingon intention unless it is stated in otherwise canon material..

If Kruge had been rogue or acting without instruction they could have easily claimed that he was not acting in the name of the Empire and was not authorized to do as he did. Instead the Empire doubled down and was unapologetic.

In the original draft of TSFS Kruge was rogue, had stolen a *Romulan* Bird of Prey and was acting on his own. But that isn't what came to the screen.

 

[Citiprime]

Kurge was either a spy pretending to be a pirate or a pirate pretending to be a spy.

As a pirate, he's a criminal, and laws mean nothing.

As a spy, the empire means everything, and law still means nothing.

This goes back to some of the arguments from aughts, but whether or not the Geneva Conventions protections applies to "terrorists" is something that's debatable. Whether or not Kruge is a terrorists is debatable, given that he is wearing a Klingon uniform and (by way of The Voyage Home) the Klingon government claims him. However, Kruge and his crew are in direct violation of the Neutral Zone and attacked Federation starships without provocation.

Disregard for the rules and laws of war do not give the other side a free pass to likewise do the same.

I would argue that you can't be a surrendered prisoner of war, with the duties thereof, when the other side is still being a belligerent. The murder of David showed the Klingons did not accept the surrender. They were terrorists holding hostages, and a hostage has no duty to abide by customs to "unlawful belligerents."

 

[Racefuel]

I would argue that you can't be a surrendered prisoner of war, with the duties thereof, when the other side is still being a belligerent. The murder of David showed the Klingons did not accept the surrender. They were terrorists holding hostages, and a hostage has no duty to abide by customs to "unlawful belligerents."

They did accept the surrender because they didn't just murder Saavik, Spock and David at the get-go. Now what they *did* wrong in is the murder of David to be sure, but that means that Kruge alone and that Klingon who eventually got blasted into a hillside by Kirk, were the war criminals.

This gets nuanced fast but we're also trying to apply 20th century laws to a 23rd century incident lol.

 

[Guy Gardener]

This goes back to some of the arguments from aughts, but whether or not the Geneva Conventions protections applies to "terrorists" is something that's debatable. Whether or not Kruge is a terrorists is debatable, given that he is wearing a Klingon uniform and (by way of The Voyage Home) the Klingon government claims him. However, Kruge and his crew are in direct violation of the Neutral Zone and attacked Federation starships without provocation.


I would argue that you can't be a surrendered prisoner of war, with the duties thereof, when the other side is still being a belligerent. The murder of David showed the Klingons did not accept the surrender. They were terrorists holding hostages, and a hostage has no duty to abide by customs to "unlawful belligerents."

Novel I read said that what they wear is centuries old family battle armour.

Everyone except that fat Chef on Deep Space Nine wears that stuff.

It's not an official uniform of the Imperial Fleet.

The Klingon Soldiers wear civilian dress while going into battle.

Which brings us back to spies or soldiers.

 

[Racefuel]

Novel I read said that what they wear is centuries old family battle armour.

Everyone except that fat Chef on Deep Space Nine wears that stuff.

It's not an official uniform of the Imperial Fleet.

The Klingon Soldiers wear civilian dress while going into battle.

Which brings us back to spies or soldiers.

That is incorrect. What is seen on screen overrides novels, always.

In Redemption Part 2 the outfit that the Klingons wear is described as the uniform of a Klingon, IE "You drink with our enemies?!"

Timestamped link for that scene

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[Guy Gardener]

They did accept the surrender because they didn't just murder Saavik, Spock and David at the get-go. Now what they *did* wrong in is the murder of David to be sure, but that means that Kruge alone and that Klingon who eventually got blasted into a hillside by Kirk, were the war criminals.

This gets nuanced fast but we're also trying to apply 20th century laws to a 23rd century incident lol.

Chang said an unprovoked attack is a breach of interstellar law.

 

[Racefuel]

Chang said an unprovoked attack is a breach of interstellar law.

Yes, it is an act of war and a violation of interstellar law in that regard, as is the attacking of Grissom in Federation Space.

It doesn't suddenly make Kruge and his crew not representatives of the Empire as we saw in ST4 when the Empire claimed them and did not disavow or deny what happened.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Lol, the logic would be similar to MLMs. Pyramid schemes are illegal, therefore what I'm doing must not be a pyramid scheme!

 

[Guy Gardener]

That is incorrect. What is seen on screen overrides novels, always.

In Redemption Part 2 the outfit that the Klingons wear is described as the uniform of a Klingon, IE "You drink with our enemies?!"

Timestamped link for that scene

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Accept third party cookies

Does not specify if is the uniform of a Klingon Seemstress or a Klingon Yogurtist.

Its a civil war.

One side is the Imperial Navy and the other side is Duras' buddies and cousins, but they both wear the same uniform, and neither see it as a betrayal.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Kronos One was also under an arranged banner of peace, the situation is vastly different.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes, it is an act of war and a violation of interstellar law in that regard, as is the attacking of Grissom in Federation Space.

It doesn't suddenly make Kruge and his crew not representatives of the Empire as we saw in ST4 when the Empire claimed them and did not disavow or deny what happened.

If Kurge is retired and he bought the ship at auction, then he's just some jerk wandering around with a hull full of photonic weapons trying to relieve his glory days, then he's not a government employee anymore.

Admitting that Kurge is just some C### who dragged the galaxy to war is admitting weakness. It'd be like if the proud Boys attacked China, and then America has to say "Um, yeah, they're just scamps, you can totally torture them to death, they were never under secret orders from George Soros to take out your banking System. Please don't retaliate."

Hunt for the Red October almost?

 

[Racefuel]

At this point you're just inventing things that weren't stated or otherwise on screen to create a situation where you're right..

Yeah this is all fictional, but based entirely on what was seen..there's no indication the Klingons were acting in a rogue agent manner, the Empire did not disavow or deny what they were doing, and were unapologetic.

At this point the examples and "evidences" you're showing are just so disjointed and nonsensical that I'm not even sure you know the point you're trying to make beyond being unable to admit you got something wrong

 

[Guy Gardener]

Though Kirk is also not exactly a lawful combatant!

Since the Empire and the federation were on Friendly terms, they could have caught the Star Ship theif for the Federation as a solid.

Wasn't the Bounty a 30 year old ship?

It's not a warship, it's a piece of shit, that should have been scrapped 10 years ago.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Since the Empire and the federation were on Friendly terms, they could have caught the Star Ship theif for the Federation as a solid.

Wasn't the Bounty a 30 year old ship?

It's not a warship, it's a piece of shit, that should have been scrapped 10 year ago.

30 years is not that old for a ship, even in the present day. They are so expensive to make you want to get a good life out of them.

 

[Racefuel]

Since the Empire and the federation were on Friendly terms, they could have caught the Star Ship theif for the Federation as a solid.

Wasn't the Bounty a 30 year old ship?

It's not a warship, it's a piece of shit, that should have been scrapped 10 year ago.

It wasn't stated how old Bounty was in ST4. The only time we've ever heard about the age of a BoP was in Generations when the Duras sisters had a "D12" class Bird of Prey that was 20 years old in 2372.

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

General Whorm Loathsom wasn't a droid.

Yes you are right! Obi-Wan was doing a false surrender with his whole sitting down and waiting for tea, etc.

 

[Racefuel]

30 years is not that old for a ship, even in the present day. They are so expensive to make you want to get a good life out of them.

Arleigh Burke will be 32 years old this year, Barry just turned 30 and John Paul Jones will be 30 in December (all Arleigh Burke class destroyers).

Theodore Roosevelt is 36 I think?

 

[Guy Gardener]

30 years is not that old for a ship, even in the present day. They are so expensive to make you want to get a good life out of them.

They made a big deal about the Enterprise being too old when she was only 30.

Space and subspace is probably more toxic than sea water.

 

[Guy Gardener]

At this point you're just inventing things that weren't stated or otherwise on screen to create a situation where you're right..

Yeah this is all fictional, but based entirely on what was seen..there's no indication the Klingons were acting in a rogue agent manner, the Empire did not disavow or deny what they were doing, and were unapologetic.

At this point the examples and "evidences" you're showing are just so disjointed and nonsensical that I'm not even sure you know the point you're trying to make beyond being unable to admit you got something wrong

If the Klingons want to do something about Genesis, they would have sent a fleet to set up a blockade, or one ship to monitoring everything under cloak.

Kurge attacked a shitty science vessel and a Federation Battle Cruiser. If the Enterprise had had a full crew, Kurge would have had his ass handed to him in 9 seconds.

His mission was unrealistic, and his actions were desperate.

If Kurge truly was a soldier on assignment, retreat was always an option, but as a crazy person, he kept pushing until he got himself killed.

 

[Citiprime]

The Bounty can't be a super old by 23rd century standards.

It was capable of doing close to Warp 10 in the slingshot maneuver. Some old rust bucket probably wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, Kruge's shup in its original form in the script was supposed to be a Romulan ship when the villains were originally Romulan, then shifted to be a ship that Kruge stole from the Romulans, and eventually the Romulan connection was dropped.