That might be what he meant but the absence of the word "equivalent" coupled with comments like "no separate officer and enlisted categories" means that what he said was that NCOs and enlisted aren't "worthy" of being in Starfleet because they're "too military" and that only academics with degrees are allowed.
25th century ranks
- Thread starter Ronald Held
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That might be what he meant but the absence of the word "equivalent" coupled with comments like "no separate officer and enlisted categories" means that what he said was that NCOs and enlisted aren't "worthy" of being in Starfleet because they're "too military" and that only academics with degrees are allowed.
Why would StarFleet or any armed services need Professionally trained Waiters or Barbers?
That's not what StarFleet is about.
Look at "Mot the Barber". He worked on the USS Enterprise as a private civilian Barber in the Barbershop on the USS Enterprise-D.
StarFleet Academy lets you specialize once you get in.
You can have a "Bachelor's in whatever speciality you want, be it security or medicine or engineering.
That's the whole point of integration.
Then you have no idea of how the American-style "Broad Education" work.
You have your General Education requirements, those are easily taken care of in ~1-2 years.
They're not particularly hard either.
Then the rest of the time is focused on your speciality to get your Bachelor's in ___.
She spent the majority of the time in a class-room before she went into the lab / field to do hands on work.
StarFleet doesn't need a professional Gardener on a StarShip or StarBase.
That's why we have Civillian Contracting, same with IRL military.
If you want to join, choose a subject that they need head count in; there are plenty of billets for those subject matters that they care about.
Gardening, Waitering, Hair Styling aren't one of those subject matters.
That's why I want to get rid of the concept of a divide between the (Commissioned & Enlisted|Non-Com)
That's literally a archaic British System that many militaries have followed.
A more universal "University | Trade Skills" model will allow the Academy Students to choose course / subject matters relevant to StarFleet Academy and it's mission goals.
Be it from the Scientific, Engineering, Command, Tactical, Medical, Diplomatic, etc routes.
There would be all sorts of routes needed to complete your goal as a StarFleet officer.
The student would pick once they enter StarFleet Academy.
Obviously there will be some common "General Education" requirements.
e.g.
CQC & CQB Combat Training 101 - Basics Competency in Hand-to-Hand combat and wielding standard projectile arms that StarFleet employ.
Piloting StarShip 101 - Basics of driving or piloting a StarShip, you don't have to be a master level, just your basic Drivers License equivalent for operating a Shuttle or Starship; so that once you're at the helm, you aren't a hazard to everybody around you.
We don't expect you to be at a professional level (Race Car Driver, Stunt Driver equivalent, Top Gun Ace Pilot). These are just basic core competencies. There are specialty tracks for those who want to train to be "Expert Level" proficient in piloting / operating a StarShip, Shuttle, StarFighter, etc.
General Basic Education in UFP/StarFleet History, Astronomy, Planetary Sciences, General Science, Math, Computers, Technology, Biology, etc.
All 101 level or Basics in most common fundamentals of things that you're expected to know before you ship out to the Stars in StarFleet.
See above for the University model, but allow "Multiple Electives" and people to train in multiple jobs or proficiency.
Some people are able to be proficient in multiple departments, let them.
That's why Officers should have their "Primary Rank" in whatever subject matter they choose, but have "Warranted Ranks" in the other subjects that they excel in and continue to develop in as side skills.
See Julian Bashir taking StarFleet Academy Engineering Extension courses in Basic StarShip Operations.
He's trying to better himself by taking courses outside his primary field of speciality, which is medicine.
But to have basic competency in repairing the tech or tools he uses on a StarShip is invaluable.
Even if it's not at the same level as one of Chief O'Brien's assistants, it's better than having zero knowledge or skill on how the tech operates and how it needs to be fixed.
And with the Scheduling model that I prefer within StarFleet, there is plenty of extra time during the work week to train on side skills or jobs to make you well rounded since only ~60% of your time is focused on your primary job, the other 40% is on self training and training in other fields of speciality that aren't your primary focus. That allows StarFleet to develop the skills of every officer and make them well rounded.
Look at Janeway, before she was a Captain, she was a science officer with some engineering capability.
Look at Geordi LaForge, he started as a Pilot, went down the Engeering route and became Chief Engeer on the USS Enterprise, then eventually went command route as a Captain for a while before retiring into Admiralcy as Commodore in the Engineering Division. But I doubt Geordi ever lost his skills as a basic competency pilot or Engineer when he went down the command route.
Same with Captain Shaw, he was a Engineer before he became a Captain.
Outside of a few characters in TOS being Non-Coms and Chief O'Brien, most Star Trek doesn't even show the concept of Non-Coms or Enlisted services.
As for treatment, that's more of a current day issue, but the divide still exists. Eliminating that divide is what I want to see.
And O'Brien being offered a teaching position is smart, StarFleet Academy recognizes that rare special talents that is Chief O'Brien. And he has countless experience with Cardassian tech and making it work with StarFleet tech, that's a special set of skills.
They were probably the lowest ranking "Lower Deckers" assigned to donig Dining Table duties for the higher up officers.
That's the type of job you give to a "Lower Decker".
But the difference in Phaser vs Phaser Rifle's fire power output isn't that great.
Short of needing to take out small skimmers or armored vehicles with a Phaser Rifle, most things can be solved with a Phaser Pistol, there's more than enough destructive output to solve most situations.
And Size, Wait, Encumberance matter for what arms you choose to take with you on duty.
NCO's | Enlisted would enter StarFleet Academy, just like Officers.
The only difference is what Speciality they train in before shipping out.
You'd still have your Trade Skills | Focused Learning, the only difference is the learning model is more akin to a University where everybody goes to the same campus and studies under the same larger institution (StarFleet Academy)
The concept of a NCO|Enlisted wouldn't exist anymore. Everybody would be a StarFleet Officer.
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I doubt that's true. You will find that distinction in virtually every army/navy/air force. I really doubt that every country copied the British.
Because they simply do:
List of United States Navy ratings - Wikipedia
I find it curious that you want to eliminiate a perceived divide and on the other hand you want to create an even greater divide by saying that some jobs are not worthy of a Starfleet uniform.
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No, you don't want to "get rid of the system", because you're still advocating for the elitest part that created the divide in the first place.
And what good is history to an engineer? Or geology to a security officer?
I'm not saying exclude who people can't be proficent in multiple departments, I'm saying have a place for people who are only talented at one.
Starfleet officers aren't just assigned to starships, they also work on starbases and in groundside facilities
Which basically amounts to slavery.
Whereas in a modernized streamlined system that includes both specialist enlisted/warranted short courses and generalist/advanced long course entry routes that feed into a single chain of command (I posted an example, RW parallels exist in law enforcement, US Civil Air Patrol, retail and even academia in a sense) is far more inclusive of all candidates who wish to serve, than a two-tier system which preserves all the authority and agency for the academic elite (and not just that, but those that can meet those requirements as a teen or early 20s) and relegating everyone else to a civilian "servant class".
Would you need a Cobbler in StarFleet, especially in a replicator world?
Do you need a StarBucks Barista when you have replicators?
What about a Gardener on a StarShip?
There are certain jobs that StarFleet wouldn't focus on or need in their service.
If there are a few positions, like the Barber, they can hire civilians to come on board and perform Barbershop duties. See Mot the Barber who cut hair on the Enterprise-D
Same with Bartenders, they hire civilians to serve on the vessel, like Guinan or the countless other Bartenders who served on the USS Cerritos as a civilian contractor doing Bartending duties.
It's not a big deal, not everybody on the StarShip has to wear a StarFleet uniform.
Hell Guinan never wore a StarFleet uniform, she's one of the favorite Bartenders that served on board the Enterprise-D.
There were several other civilian Bartenders on the USS Cerritos.
There have been instances of replicated food & drink being inferior to the real thing. Coffee would be just another example of that. There will always be those who'll go the extra mile for the genuine article.
On Parliament-class ships, though, there wouldn't be a Starbucks, of course there'd be a Tim Hortons.
You're assuming Tim Hortons survived the 3rd World War and is still around as a company =D
How so, wanting to spend time at StarFleet Academy to learn isn't "Elitest".
It's one school, one system, everybody goes to the same learning institution to become a StarFleet Officer.
The concept of the Enlisted/Non-Com becomes a "Foot-note" in history.
Everybody is integrated under one chain of command, learning, work, etc.
History, especially engineering history is very valuable.
Also general technolgical history is it's own thing that is very deep and has giant influential roots everywhere in real life.
Geology could be useful depending on where you're stationed. If you're stationed at a Planetary Base, and need to know the terrain, that could be useful. It all depends on where you want to go in your career.
But a 101 in Geology can't hurt, it's general common knowledge that not everybody knows.
And I welcome those people just as much as those who are Multi-Skilled.
There's always a place for specialists in one department in my head cannon, just as well as those who have Multiple Skills.
Yeah, depends on the assignment you choose.
I can see many of those who are married & have children to want to work on a StarBase or on a PlanetaryBase.
The stability of being stationary and growing up on a base is better than being out on a StarShip, where god knows what insanity might happen the next day.
StarFleet doesn't need to teach every odd job in existence.
StarFleet has it's own mission objectives along with Academic Training to fulfill such objectives.
StarFleet doesn't need a Poolboy, BarTender, Cobbler, or a Seamstress.
IRL militaries contract out many services that it doesn't need. That's why it's called "A Job", and the civilian world takes those jobs and fulfills the needs of the military for things they don't care to put effort into.
We don't need a StarFleet trained Gardener to mow the Academy lawns.
StarFleet can hire Gardeners or Androids or Holograms to do the work for them.
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The concept of a Non-Com is barely referenced, it might as well not exist given the way they portray most of the show.
There is nothing elitist about either the existence or absence of an enlisted or non commissioned officer category. As I have tried to explain, in the American system (and Roddenberry was American) that system is reflective of how much legal authority you are given to carry out a task in the name of your government. That’s it. Any other meaning is something people are attaching to it. If Roddenberry was truly saying no non comm - and I would like to see proof of this - he was merely saying his officers have full authority to act as representatives of Starfleet and the UFP. Yes, they need a minimum of education to do this. But hell, they also need a minimum of education to fly a starship hundreds of light years.
There have been a different statements over the years, unfortunately I can't find any of the ones were he rants against "unskilled lower deckers with only a high school education or similar", the only one I've managed to find is this: https://www.bu.edu/clarion/guides/Star_Trek_Writers_Guide.pdf
The relevant passage is:
27. SOME QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Is the starship U.S.S. Enterprise a military vessel? Yes, but only semi-military in practice -- omitting features which are heavily authoritarian. For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men" categories. And we avoid saluting and other annoying medieval leftovers. On the other hand, we do keep a flavor of Naval usage and terminology to help encourage believability and identification by the audience. After all, our own Navy today still retains remnants of tradition known to Nelson and Drake.
Which only advocates not having a hard seperation between officers and enlisted, which is certainly consistent with the approach of most police departments. In fact, Gene's previous employer -- the LAPD -- has one of the largest and most developed enlisted cadres of any US police force with a total of eight enlisted ranks across five or six paygrades (Police Officer I, II, III, III+1 (which may rank with Police Detective I), Police Sergeant I/Detective II and Police Sergeant II/Detective III), and every one of the last is legally eligible for promotion to Police Lieutenant after at least two years at as PSII/PDIII, though I imagine that there are examinations/tests/courses that you need to take as part of that.
For reference, my dad was a police officer in SoCal for thirty years from 1963 to 1993. He retired as a Sergeant however had spent some time as a Lt before asking for a "ceremonial" demotion to Sgt when he retired since he enjoyed being a Sergeant and spend 15of his 30 years as one. In the mid 80's when he promoted to Lt. he had to not only take 10 hours of testing in policy and procedures, but 5 more hours in law tests and he had to have his Masters degree in an associated field of study.
So yeah, at least at one time, the step from "enlisted" to "officer" was quite significant.
The Single Command / Rank / Leveling-Up structure makes more sense to have that test when you enter the Management Ranks / Command Staff as you get older / more experienced.
Makes sense. The LAPD expedites promotion from POII (the first rank that can patrol solo) to POIII (who wear the insignia of a Corporal and act as Training Officer for the POIs) for anyone with at least an associate's degree, but you can get promoted without it based on Time in Service.
Yes, but entirely down to your own motivation and qualifications not any social or political factors.
Finally, we agree on something on this topic.
We share the same over-all goals, just how we get there is a little bit different.
If we're gonna compare ranks and degrees, it could be roughly like this:
Vocational training - Chief and its subranks
Bachelor - Ensign
Master/MD - Lt. JG
Doctorate - Lt.
PI, group leader - Lt. Cdr.
Professor - Commander
Institute director - Captain
Head of faculty/division - Commodore
University president - Rear Admiral
Head of several universities, like in one state system - Vice Admiral
Secretary of Research/Education - Admiral
Head of research organization - Fleet Admiral
Vocational training - Chief and its subranks
Bachelor - Ensign
Master/MD - Lt. JG
Doctorate - Lt.
PI, group leader - Lt. Cdr.
Professor - Commander
Institute director - Captain
Head of faculty/division - Commodore
University president - Rear Admiral
Head of several universities, like in one state system - Vice Admiral
Secretary of Research/Education - Admiral
Head of research organization - Fleet Admiral
Fleet should be Rear
Miles Obrien is a non-com, Sergey Rozhenko was a non-com on the Intrepid, he exclaimed in "Family" "Imagine,an old enlisted man like me raising an officer!"
The JemHadar identified Obrien as "chief petty officer or what starfleet refers to as a "noncom""
In "Valiant" Cadet Collins introduced herself as "Acting chief petty officer"
You're just ignoring it because it doesn't fit your narrative
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