25th century ranks

[Shamrock Holmes]

Reason 4: Unhappy with The School or College Experience
If you don't like Academic life, then StarFleet Academy wouldn't be for you.
Doesn't matter if it's Trade School or any other School.
Modern School life has alot of learning that has to be taught, even in trades.

And every single role in Starfleet service on every ship, plant and base in the Federation requires that level of education before you can join up?

I don't think so.

Waiters, barbers, lab assistants (okay, maybe working towards a degree could be a requirement there), security guards, medical technicians/(para)medics, quartermasters, gardeners.... what's the benefit of forcing them to spend four years in the classroom learning topics that aren't relevant to their desired job rather than being out there doing the job?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Waiters, barbers, lab assistants (okay, maybe working towards a degree could be a requirement there), security guards, medical technicians/(para)medics, quartermasters, gardeners.... what's the benefit of forcing them to spend four years in the classroom learning topics that aren't relevant to their desired job rather than being out there doing the job?

Why would there be waiters in StarFleet?
They'd contract out private staff from the regular civilian crowds.
Same with the barbers.

Lab Assistants would go to junior officers or low ranking crew in the specific fields.

Security Guards, we have StarFleet Security for that. They have their own tactical training.

MedTech's would still have to go to school (My Mom was a Med Tech, took 4+ years of schooling to get her degree).
Paramedics would have their own training route.
Gardener's, they'd hire from the civilian world.

QuarterMasters would be it's own section in logistics.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Why would there be waiters in StarFleet? They'd contract out private staff from the regular civilian crowds. Same with the barbers.

So, they're second-class citizens eternally stuck in menial roles under the supervision of Starfleet officers and unable to progress or develop because they're "not worthy". Real inclusive that...

Lab Assistants would go to junior officers or low ranking crew in the specific fields.

What low ranking specialists?

You've specifically banned any specialists from Starfleet by insisting that anyone who enters has to get a broad education bachelor's degree before they're "worthy" but on a Starfleet uniform.

Security Guards, we have StarFleet Security for that. They have their own tactical training.

Nope.

Specialist training only in your subject of interest isn't allowed. You have to take an America-style "broad education" Bachelor's Degree.

MedTech's would still have to go to school (My Mom was a Med Tech, took 4+ years of schooling to get her degree). Paramedics would have their own training route. Gardener's, they'd hire from the civilian world.

Yeah, but I bet that she didn't spend all four plus years stuck in a classroom learning only theory. Even where paramedics do require a degree for independent practice, they usually follow the "learn the basics, then go out into the real world and learn while getting experience" route.

The issues of limiting gardeners to only civilians has the same problem, if not more so than waiters or barbers.

QuarterMasters would be it's own section in logistics.

Same issue here.

To be clear, I actually agree that the hard ceiling that most modern militaries still have by default due to the different entry points is obselete and would require reform to be fit for purpose, but IMO a philosophy that allows anyone to contribute in their own way and develop themselves without artificially imposed limits is far more inclusive and desirable than one that creates a two-tier system regardless of the criteria used.

One possible system for specialists and junior officers that combines elements of various systems could be:

Trainee/Cadet: New Entry undergoing initial theory instruction in their primary role. This assignment is held for no more than one year by default.
Crewman/Midshipman: After ITI, candidates are posted to assistant positions in the field to gain practical experience. Crewmen will complete their familiarisation in their primary role and retained "deployable" status, whereas Midshipmen will return to the Academy for undergraduate training. This period is variable but typically less than six months.
Warrant (Specialist) Officer: Crewmen are promoted to this rank automatically upon demonstrating the ability to work independently in their primary role. Further leadership courses may lead to promotion to Chief Warrant (Specialist) Officer, however WOs may also remain at this rank or pursue a wider undergraduate degree program for promotion to Ensign.
Chief Warrant (Specialist) Officer: Acts as leader of small teams within larger departments and up to Head of Department on smaller vessels. As with WOs, they may remain at this rank or pursue an undergraduate degree for promotion.
Ensign: Most Midshipmen are promoted to this rank after completion of their undergraduate degree at Starfleet Academy or equivalent Member World facility. Acts as Duty Officer or Assistant Head of Department when deployed.
Lieutenant Junior Grade: Select Midshipmen and Warrant Officers (and most CWOs) are promoted directly to this grade, otherwise Ensigns are promoted to this rank after their first tour. Acts as Duty Officer, Assistant Head of Department or Head of Department when deployed.

 

[Tuskin38]

O'Brien was offered a teaching position at the academy at the end of DS9.

And, KamenRiderBlade, you've yet to provide any evidence that non-coms in Starfleet are treated lesser by anyone.

 

[Lord Hobbers]

If I remember correctly, a 24th Century officer with the rank of Commodore was listed on a screen in an early episode of TNG, although the specifics of it and which episode it was escape me for the moment.

What I find interesting is that both Commodore Oh and Commodore La Forge wear line officer uniforms rather than flag officer uniforms, which suggests that in Starfleet commodore is a line rank, and not a flag rank.

Some people have pointed out that the rank of commodore is no longer in use in the US Navy, however, it is still in use in many other navies around the world, including the UK's Royal Navy.

 

[Lord Hobbers]

Well, I wouldn't say absolutely nothing. I think much of the confusion stems from TNG season 1 where admirals wore a weird rank braid insignia.

We've seen Quinn and Jameson with just the braid, Savar with the braid and one pip beneath, and Aaron with braid and two pips.

Since arguably just the braid should logically be the lowest admiralty rank and Quinn and Jameson were addressed as admiral, the implication seems to be that the one star rank wasn't called Commodore during that time.

https://startrekcostumeguide.com/tn...l-season-1/costume-analysis/uniform-analysis/

You are assuming that commodores would wear the same uniform as admirals. Picard has shown us that this is not the case, so in TNG season one, had we seen a commodore, they could have just worn the normal officer uniform with whatever rank a commodore had back then.

 

[Lord Hobbers]

I don't like how this new generation of costume makers have no clue about rank structure.

It started with DIS where it is almost impossible to tell rank (both on the old and new insignia) unless you have a 4k publicity shot. On SNW there is almost no correlation between dialogue and rank stripes. Pike and Uhura are the only ones of the main (!) cast who wear appropriate stripes (I hope they fix this in Season 2). On PRO that Denobulan wore two rank insignia due to a missunderstanding of position Vs rank. And the PIC costume maker has proven her ignorance by posting two weird ass rank charts for Starfleet and the Confederation.

Yeah, SNW is terrible for rank insignia. I really hope they sort it out for Season Two (but I'm not holding my breath).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Some people have pointed out that the rank of commodore is no longer in use in the US Navy, however, it is still in use in many other navies around the world, including the UK's Royal Navy.

Indeed.

Though it wasn't substantive rank until the 90s, but rather the title borne by junior taskforce commanders (as in modern US usage) and by the Flag Officer (a Rear or Vice Admiral) in command of the HMY Britannia due to her status a combination military and diplomatic posting.

Interestingly, modern policy since the change is to appoint aircraft COs from the Commodore ranks but for them to "demote" to the title of Captain for the duration of the assignment (they are still paid OF-6 wages rather than OF-5), though I've also heard rumours that the assignment was always restricted to candidates who were deemed suitable for a taskforce commander billet.

 

[Spike730]

What I find interesting is that both Commodore Oh and Commodore La Forge wear line officer uniforms rather than flag officer uniforms, which suggests that in Starfleet commodore is a line rank, and not a flag rank.

La Forge wears a unique new uniform.

 

[Lord Hobbers]

La Forge wears a unique new uniform.

Yes, but aside from the line of division yellow around the collar it is almost identical to the uniform worn by Commander Ro.

Plus, it doesn't have the gold braiding that we saw on the admiral's uniforms from Season Two, which to me implies it is more line than flag.

 

[aridas sofia]

You can call them all officers, but in a police department, a lieutenant or captain still outranks a sergeant.

I made it pretty clear that whatever Roddenberry said, Starfleet was portrayed as being a military, not paramilitary, organization. The proof is in the portrayal, and it was way more Navy than NOAA. But whatever it was meant to be or portrayed as, I don’t think anybody ever said there wasn’t a hierarchy. Everybody being an officer doesn’t mean one officer doesn’t outrank another. As I understand it, it only refers to where you get your authority to act on behalf of a government. A commissioned officer has been commissioned - by the appropriate government authority. A non commissioned officer and all enlisted personnel don’t have the commission. They act only on the legal authority of the commissioned officer.

All policeman also have a kind of commission - they have been deputized. So the question is, when dealing with what Roddenberry supposedly said, just what did he mean? A starship was frequently portrayed as being far beyond communication with the government that sent them. That could either mean everybody on that ship had to have a commission, or those who didn’t needed to be kept on a tight rein.

But like I explained above, it is possible he meant everyone had a commission, OR that there were BOTH commissioned AND non commissioned officers (ie petty officers).THAT makes the most sense of all interpretations given the way it was portrayed onscreen - the hard work done in our world by enlisted personnel other than NCOs was done some other way in Starfleet- possibly by magical technologies like replicators and robots. The NCOs were the specialists who carried these duties out but couldn’t act on behalf of Starfleet without the authorization of a commissioned officer.

You end up with a navy-like hierarchy minus the lowest enlisted ratings - seaman and such. The NCO ranks begin with petty officers. They act on authority of ensigns and higher. The captain has a special commission to command the ship.
They are all officers- just not all commissioned officers.

 

[Racefuel]

Why would there be waiters in StarFleet?

We've seen Starfleet waiters in several shows and movies.

Most specifically there are uniformed personell setting the dining table in the officers mess in TUC.

 

[C.E. Evans]

We've seen Starfleet waiters in several shows and movies.

Most specifically there are uniformed personell setting the dining table in the officers mess in TUC.

If they're in uniform, they're likely mess hall staff or even yeomen (in the Old Royal British Navy sense).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

All policeman also have a kind of commission - they have been deputized. So the question is, when dealing with what Roddenberry supposedly said, just what did he mean? A starship was frequently portrayed as being far beyond communication with the government that sent them. That could either mean everybody on that ship had to have a commission, or those who didn’t needed to be kept on a tight rein.

IMO, it would more accurate say that all police are (at least) warrant officers, rather than commissioned as warrants of various kinds are critical to the authority and functions of the police officer.

Unsurprisingly given Roddenberry's history, a fair bit of Starfleet's visual language for it's officers is based on the police (they wear a badge, which is often surrendered when resigning, their default weapon is a sidearm, not a rifle...)

 

[Spike730]

Yes, the waiters in TUC and also TSFS (Spacedock cafeteria) were in uniform wearing special services sky blue division colours and enlisted pins.

Honestly, I don‘t see the point of a cook or waiter spending 4 years at the Academy studying Quantum Dynamics.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If they're in uniform, they're likely mess hall staff or even yeomen (in the Old Royal British Navy sense).

Writer Logistician (embracing MC, NC, PS and YN ratings for the USN) and Catering Services Logistician (previously separate ratings of Chef (pre-1974 Commissaryman) and Steward, corresponds to USN CS) are grouped with Logistician Supply Chain (corresponds to USN LS specifically, but likely also includes elements of RS),

 

[aridas sofia]

IMO, it would more accurate say that all police are (at least) warrant officers, rather than commissioned as warrants of various kinds are critical to the authority and functions of the police officer.

Unsurprisingly given Roddenberry's history, a fair bit of Starfleet's visual language for it's officers is based on the police (they wear a badge, which is often surrendered when resigning, their default weapon is a sidearm, not a rifle...)

I am speaking a little beyond my expertise here, but from what I do know, a warrant is authority granted to do something that a law sets forth. A commission is authority to act on behalf of the government in a specified legal capacity. It is a subtle but meaningful distinction that relates to how much discretion the person is being given. I believe you’re right that in being deputized, a police officer is acting on what is effectively a warrant, while the chief is the one who has what in effect is a commission. That isn’t the way courts have interpreted it in the US, but it is the correct distinction as far as I know.

I think for our purposes, what is important is that in TOS we saw specialists and technicians, which would equate to NCOs. Then we saw ensigns to admirals, which equate to commissions. I don’t recall any instance of what would be anything explitly below an nco. I guess you could claim “crewman” was akin to “seaman” but that would be a stretch. I think in effect then, what Roddenberry meant was everyone in Starfleet was either a commissioned or non commissioned officer and that there were no ratings below that level.

 

[Racefuel]

I am speaking a little beyond my expertise here, but from what I do know, a warrant is authority granted to do something that a law sets forth. A commission is authority to act on behalf of the government in a specified legal capacity. It is a subtle but meaningful distinction that relates to how much discretion the person is being given. I believe you’re right that in being deputized, a police officer is acting on what is effectively a warrant, while the chief is the one who has what in effect is a commission. That isn’t the way courts have interpreted it in the US, but it is the correct distinction as far as I know.

I think for our purposes, what is important is that in TOS we saw specialists and technicians, which would equate to NCOs. Then we saw ensigns to admirals, which equate to commissions. I don’t recall any instance of what would be anything explitly below an nco. I guess you could claim “crewman” was akin to “seaman” but that would be a stretch. I think in effect then, what Roddenberry meant was everyone in Starfleet was either a commissioned or non commissioned officer and that there were no ratings below that level.

"Dax" in TUC was just referred to as "Crewman" and wore a non-com uniform.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

am speaking a little beyond my expertise here, but from what I do know, a warrant is authority granted to do something that a law sets forth. A commission is authority to act on behalf of the government in a specified legal capacity. It is a subtle but meaningful distinction that relates to how much discretion the person is being given.

Some warrants do function that way. I must admit I'm partly drawing UK practice here where officers' ID are literally referred to as warrant cards, and officers are officially appointed/empowered by a judge.

I think for our purposes, what is important is that in TOS we saw specialists and technicians, which would equate to NCOs.

More so in the US Navy than others, particularly Commonwealth navies (to say nothing of non-naval forces) but not entirely incorrect.

I don’t recall any instance of what would be anything explitly below an nco. I guess you could claim “crewman” was akin to “seaman” but that would be a stretch.

Personally, I think that non-specialists (E1 to E3 that haven't completed their training) have no business deploying in the fleet, particularly on starships, so I headcanon Crewman and Specialist are interchangible (it pretty much must be the case in UE Starfleet), but most of the "pro-enlisted" faction insist that Crewman must be referring to E1 to E3s and therefore Crewman First Class Tarses, a veteran pharmaceutical/medical technician must be subordinate to (not even equivalent to) Yeoman Third Class Tina Lawton who is strongly implied to be only 18 or 19 and therefore just qualified.

what Roddenberry meant was everyone in Starfleet was either a commissioned or non commissioned officer and that there were no ratings below that level.

No, as I've commented several times on this thread and others he specifically disallows "high school graduates" from serving in Starfleet and asserts that everyone in the organisation has at least a Bachelors Degree.

 

[aridas sofia]

No, as I've commented several times on this thread and others he specifically disallows "high school graduates" from serving in Starfleet and asserts that everyone in the organisation has at least a Bachelors Degree.

Oh yes I understand that is your meaning and I am saying I agree - that in his mind, in his 23rd century, everyone DOES have the equivalent of a Bachelors degree. The specialist component of the NCO, and the competency to be trusted with the warrant, would require it. I’m not saying that is right or wrong or whatever- only that I believe that is what he intended.