Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x05 - "Imposters"

[jackoverfull]

They can replicate blood, and it oozes through a cardiovascular system, while it's inside them.

Disconnected from the whole, that blood goes back to ooze quickly.

When Odo was forced to be a solid, his body was tricked into taking humanoid form as well as one of the other, older changeling could.

He could eat, digest, poop, smell things, and create Sperms to express in the usual way.... Which stayed original recipe, and did not revert to founder goop.

You raise good points…Given also how he goes back to being a solid, I don't believe he was 100% human, but that the great link instructed his body to mimic a human perfectly (something beyond his usual abilities, but not theirs) and forced it to remain in that form.
This is only my theory, but I think it works better than thinking that any human could become a changeling under similar conditions.

If his skin flakes and snot flicks distanced from his main form kept its non porridge consistency, then that means that every other Changeling only failed their blood screenings because they wanted to.

Perhaps precisely to lull the federation into a sense of false security.

 

[jaime]

Makes sense.

It's not explained aloud (but multiple times behind the scenes), but you can see the communicator being a real one for example in Invasive Procedures, when the bad guys remove it to prevent him to communicate while captive.

On the onther hand, we KNOW his human features are unconvincing.

Who says his tuxedo would pass close examination?

His ‘human’ features wouldn’t even be human. They would be Bajoran. Which he does not do (he copies the hairstyle of his ‘dad’) because he is not Bajoran. (Nose ruffles would be easy to do even if he is as limited as you suggest. He has ears and his ‘uniform’ has texture. As did his tux.) By the time the other founders appear, it’s quite apparent that Odo-face is ‘default humanoid one’ for them — not to mention has that resemblance to proto humanoids in the alpha and beta quadrants — for whatever reason.

Whilst the communicator removal is in part a continuity flub, out of universe, in universe we can just as easily assume it is little different from having some hair cut off, and that once they slung it down somewhere it just turned into goo. Or that day he was wearing a real one, for whatever reason. Many times though, it is quite apparent that he forms the communicator. Any time he is busy being a wall or a deck plate for example. A communicator lump would be a giveaway after all, when he’s being the Promenade sign.

In another example, when he hosts the consciousness echo of Curzon Dax, he does get suddenly better at faces. Wrinkles. Spots. The lot. It’s also quite apparent, and stated, that his own personality is subordinate at that moment. He is a mix between Trill and default-founder-humanoid.

His dialogue tells us one thing, everything we see tells another. His friends, as his friends, don’t comment on it. Because that makes sense too, for bunches of reasons. The only person Odo likes to lie to is Odo. Because it’s his defence mechanism. It’s very obvious if you follow through his character arc.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Changing the special effects was dumb.

They look like a different species, and they don't seem to be quantifiable cooler? They look a little like the antimatter monsters from the three doctors.

Serious question...

Would it have been less expensive to fake 90s cgi effects, with whatever animation program that they are using today, or did it cost more to make them look worse?

 

[jaime]

‘Changeling’ was once a racist term that solids used to refer to Founders. Founders were once hunted down because people feared them, this is why they became isolationists and formed the Dominion after becoming angry with solids.

So Founders is the official name for the species, though Changeling is often used, even by Founders themselves as they took the name on in defiance of the solids.

Founders is the more respectful name, btw.

My thoughts exactly. But this is a series that gave us XBs.

 

[jackoverfull]

His ‘human’ features wouldn’t even be human. They would be Bajoran

Irrelevant.

Whilst the communicator removal is in part a continuity flub

Ah, I see, so you're going to ignore anything that doesn't agree with your pet theory as a "continuity flub", even when the showrunners said otherwise in interviews.

It’s also quite apparent

No it's not. He was still pretty obviously fake.

His dialogue tells us one thing, everything we see tells another

everything *you* see.

 

[jaime]

Changing the special effects was dumb.

They look like a different species, and they don't seem to be quantifiable cooler? They look a little like the antimatter monsters from the three doctors.

Serious question...

Would it have been less expensive to fake 90s cgi effects, with whatever animation program that they are using today, or did it cost more to make them look worse?

I think it is a deliberate story choice, rather than the usual 21st century ‘change for the sake of change’.

 

[jackoverfull]

Changing the special effects was dumb.

Matalas says there is a reason for that, so I'm going to wait til the end of the season to judge. The change on Discovery was much worse, by the way.

Would it have been less expensive to fake 90s cgi effects, with whatever animation program that they are using today, or did it cost more to make them look worse?

They could easily replicate the original effect…Personally I don't mind the new one, anyway.

 

[Timofnine]

My thoughts exactly. But this is a series that gave us XBs.

Maybe the Founders are actually the victims again and we just do not know it yet? That could make us eventually sympathize with Vadic.

 

[vulcancicada]

‘Changeling’ was once a racist term that solids used to refer to Founders. Founders were once hunted down because people feared them, this is why they became isolationists and formed the Dominion after becoming angry with solids.

So Founders is the official name for the species, though Changeling is often used, even by Founders themselves as they took the name on in defiance of the solids.

Founders is the more respectful name, btw.

As far as I recall, Odo and the female changeling both refer to themselves and their people as changelings. It was the term "shapeshifter" that was considered to be offensive as it suggests they are 'shifty' and untrustworthy.

 

[1001001]

Shaw is a total asshole. His tone and condescension are really unbecoming an officer of his rank.

This is, of course, mitigated by the fact that he is always right.

 

[Finn]

As far as I recall, Odo and the female changeling both refer to themselves and their people as changelings. It was the term "shapeshifter" that was considered to be offensive as it suggests they are 'shifty' and untrustworthy.

No.

I don't think the female founder ever said anything about "shapeshifter". "Changeling" was something that was given to them in the Gamma Quadrant a long time ago and they've gotten used to it. I think they implied "changeling" was meant to be "offensive". I don't think the founders actually give a shit about names.

One could argue "changeling" suggests they are "shifty" and untrustworthy as well....

 

[Photoman15]

I’m sure plenty of people in America will say that something is on the Atlantic Coast meaning NYC.

I also live on the Atlantic coast but I’m in England. People use language in this way relying on context all of the time.

Ahhh, nope. We call it the East Coast. And NYC is NOT the entire East Coast (nor "the Atlantic Coast").

 

[jaime]

Irrelevant.

Ah, I see, so you're going to ignore anything that doesn't agree with your pet theory as a "continuity flub", even when the showrunners said otherwise in interviews.


No it's not. He was still pretty obviously fake.
everything *you* see.

I have shown why the Bajoran nose is relevant. Interesting he never took on the earring or religion.

I did not ignore the communicator, just acknowledged the ‘real’ reason it even comes up as a question — and why they mention it in interviews — whilst also pointing at on screen evidence that works the other way.

And unless we somehow watched entirely different series, the DS9 I see is the same DS9 you see. Accepting that you may not pay attention to the same things I do, because they interest you less that other aspects perhaps, is one thing — but even if you ignore any subtext or elements of character or writing, there are physical, visual examples that contradict the ‘I’m crap at being a shapeshifter me’ element, over and over again. What is more complex? An ear, or individual strands of hair and clothing texture with quilted stitching and seams? If it is a matter of concentration, why not simply wear an actual uniform and make your face better if that’s your goal? You can always slip out of the uniform to change shape, and go Ken doll until you get some fresh ones after.

It’s an inherent contradiction in the character, and one that we see time and time again in Trek, starting with half-human Spock, anc continuing through Data, Odo, Seven, The Doctor, and even that Klingon surgical character whose name eludes me in DSC… Ash? Tyler? The one where they clumsily handled a male rape story for what seemed like an excuse for onscreen neo-Klingon tits. That one. Not exactly sub-text there.

You have two things to look at, the character as they present themself, and the character as we see them act.
It’s exactly what they are doing with various characters this season — nature as they believe themself to be, and the reality. Riker, Jack, Worf. Ironically, Picard himself doesn’t have this, but we see the external reflection of this when Riker and Jack discuss his synth body. We also see it in all of this weeks episode with Ro — she outright makes the subtext into text, about people seeing what they want to. Her whole final conversation with Picard is absolutely about this, and it is a key theme in Trek for *at least* forty years, with its preTMP roots in various episodes of TOS.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

As far as I recall, Odo and the female changeling both refer to themselves and their people as changelings. It was the term "shapeshifter" that was considered to be offensive as it suggests they are 'shifty' and untrustworthy.

The names are translated in German and for me completely shift in effect.
Formwandler, Wechselbalg and Gründer…
Out of those three Formwandler (shapeshifter) seems the most neutral, it can be translated back as shapechanger, taking out the “shifty” part. Wechselbalg (changeling) has a mythological connection of faerie folk taking the place of human babies stealing their life. And Gründer (founder) sounds like they run a start-up company.

 

[MrSpot]

Shaw is a total asshole. His tone and condescension are really unbecoming an officer of his rank.

This is, of course, mitigated by the fact that he is always right.

I like the character but he seems mentally unstable and totally unsuited to the captain's position. Early on this season some were comparing him to Jellico but I'm failing to see the connection - Jellico didn't dissolve into fits of childishness immaturity for example.

 

[Guy Gardener]

His ‘human’ features wouldn’t even be human. They would be Bajoran. Which he does not do (he copies the hairstyle of his ‘dad’) because he is not Bajoran. (Nose ruffles would be easy to do even if he is as limited as you suggest. He has ears and his ‘uniform’ has texture. As did his tux.) By the time the other founders appear, it’s quite apparent that Odo-face is ‘default humanoid one’ for them — not to mention has that resemblance to proto humanoids in the alpha and beta quadrants — for whatever reason.

Whilst the communicator removal is in part a continuity flub, out of universe, in universe we can just as easily assume it is little different from having some hair cut off, and that once they slung it down somewhere it just turned into goo. Or that day he was wearing a real one, for whatever reason. Many times though, it is quite apparent that he forms the communicator. Any time he is busy being a wall or a deck plate for example. A communicator lump would be a giveaway after all, when he’s being the Promenade sign.

In another example, when he hosts the consciousness echo of Curzon Dax, he does get suddenly better at faces. Wrinkles. Spots. The lot. It’s also quite apparent, and stated, that his own personality is subordinate at that moment. He is a mix between Trill and default-founder-humanoid.

His dialogue tells us one thing, everything we see tells another. His friends, as his friends, don’t comment on it. Because that makes sense too, for bunches of reasons. The only person Odo likes to lie to is Odo. Because it’s his defence mechanism. It’s very obvious if you follow through his character arc.

Remember talking down to small Children?

"Who's a big strong boy, who's a big strong boy, you're a big strong boy!"

The founders were communicating with Odo on a Level they assumed he could deal with.

Slowly and simply.

The founders look like that so that Odo does not get frustrated because he looks like that.

 

[jaime]

Remember talking down to small Children?

"Who's a big strong boy, who's a big strong boy, you're a big strong boy!"

The founders were communicating with Odo on a Level they assumed he could deal with.

Slowly and simply.

They look like that so that Odo does not get frustrated because he looks like that.

I considered this, but when we see them talking to other Dominion people, they are still in gloss-face. Obviously there’s production reasons for this, but the result in universe is that sense of ‘here is default founder’ setting. I also considered it in relation to them wanting to mirror him in order to make him feel like he belongs to them — which would make a lot of sense too — but again, it is represented again and again as just how they look as humanoids, and why the Jem’Hadar etc recognise him as a founder and therefore a god. Same for the Vorta. It’s like that *is* their appearance, on a base genetic level, when they aren’t being goop.

 

[jackoverfull]

I have shown why the Bajoran nose is relevant. Interesting he never took on the earring or religion.

It's not. He never tried to pass as Bajoran, this doesn't mean he could do it if he wanted to.

I did not ignore the communicator, just acknowledged the ‘real’ reason it even comes up as a question — and why they mention it in interviews — whilst also pointing at on screen evidence that works the other way.

So…If changelings can do communicators (even if we're shown that Odo uses a real one and the showrunners of the showy show showed us that they can't) why didn't the one on "The Ship" made one to tell the Vorta where he was?

If it is a matter of concentration, why not simply wear an actual uniform and make your face better if that’s your goal?

It would get in the way of further shapeshifting for example in combat.

 

[jaime]

The names are translated in German and for me completely shift in effect.
Formwandler, Wechselbalg and Gründer…
Out of those three Formwandler (shapeshifter) seems the most neutral, it can be translated back as shapechanger, taking out the “shifty” part. Wechselbalg (changeling) has a mythological connection of faerie folk taking the place of human babies stealing their life. And Gründer (founder) sounds like they run a start-up company.

My father tends to call them shitshapers, for the hilarity. They do look closer to sewage now than ever before.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Matalas says there is a reason for that, so I'm going to wait til the end of the season to judge. The change on Discovery was much worse, by the way.

They could easily replicate the original effect…Personally I don't mind the new one, anyway.

I was curious about the money.

If the newer Changeling special effect costs an extra 80 thousand dollars per episode, it's not exactly money well spent.