As far as out of left field romances go this one definitely cleared the fence it came so far out of the field.
Why was 7/C so disliked?
- Thread starter suarezguy
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To be honest, I don't really bother with a lot of the 'behind the scenes' stuff (writers, directors, etc.), but it almost seems to me that new writers must have come on at some point, because there is a definite 'vibe' of the direction they were pushing certain couples in at the beginning, that never paid-off, and instead, completely unforeseen 'pairings' happened. I just watched the episode (again) last night where Kes gets a gypsy BF, and the entirety of the Kes/Neelix relationship is literally thrown-away with a single line (like it happened between episodes), and Neelix, who was setup to be this VIOLENTLY JEALOUS guy just didn't seem to care any more? He tries to murder Paris, but then turns around and helps Kes' new BF a couple of days after they broke-up? Talk about bad writing.
Anyhow, to pull this back OT, my point is that they seem to just arbitrarily decided - at some point - to toss out ideas they had been running with and went in completely unplanned directions, which may have been a bid to 'be clever' (red-herrings and subverted expectations), but it didn't feel that way - it just felt forced, like C/7.
And Paris - who was demonstrated to have affection toward Kes - forgot all about that when she became available, and went after B'lanna, whom he always claimed was 'just a friend'. He even married Kes in an alternate timeline, and had a kid with her...who Harry married (just EEWWW). So Paris technically had children with three members of that crew - does that mean he tops Kirk, Tucker, and Ryker for for the all-time Starfleet macho-douche? LOL
But yeah, it seems new writers came-on, or something (producers butting their noses in?) and things 'shipped' in ways we were not ready for.
Anyhow, to pull this back OT, my point is that they seem to just arbitrarily decided - at some point - to toss out ideas they had been running with and went in completely unplanned directions, which may have been a bid to 'be clever' (red-herrings and subverted expectations), but it didn't feel that way - it just felt forced, like C/7.
And Paris - who was demonstrated to have affection toward Kes - forgot all about that when she became available, and went after B'lanna, whom he always claimed was 'just a friend'. He even married Kes in an alternate timeline, and had a kid with her...who Harry married (just EEWWW). So Paris technically had children with three members of that crew - does that mean he tops Kirk, Tucker, and Ryker for for the all-time Starfleet macho-douche? LOL
But yeah, it seems new writers came-on, or something (producers butting their noses in?) and things 'shipped' in ways we were not ready for.
Ok... something to remember: Star Trek doesn't follow the "One Twoo Wuv" ideology that other fandoms follow (a good example is the Harry Potter stories: all three main characters had the "one person" they were destined for, and none of their other relationships amounted to much. And another important character, when his "one twoo wuv" was lost to him, he spent his life lonely and bitter).
Trek doesn't go that way. While characters are generally faithful to their partners (though temptation can happen), unattached characters can fall in love more than once. I think that under different circumstances, Janeway could have been very happy with Mark, or Chakotay, or the guy she was with in "Workforce", or none of the above. And yes, Tom and B'Elanna were happy together. In another life, Tom and Kes were. That's love, Trek style. And so no, Tom is not Macho Douche. Indeed, his sensitivity and willingness to express his feelings counterbalance his occasional brashness quite well.
Why would you assume lesbian and not bisexual?
OK, I may be assuming wrongly, though Raffi is more typically bisexual (since she was in a commited hetrosexual relationship with children).
I actually like that about Trek. Seems more like how average life goes (well, except for those parallel timelines
). Though sometimes Trek pushes it too far with those 'out of the blue' relationships, and portraying romances isn't always their strong suit either.
This is true. I was responding to the notion of Paris being regarded as a lothario because he had interest in Kes but wound up with B'Elanna, and because he was married to both in different timelines.
I always go with the old-fashioned notion that "every man has only two great loves, and one of them is his mother". However, since one of those 'matings' was involuntary, and the other was a "what If?" scenario, then that still applies - Paris had only one great love inside him; we just got to see two different timelines with that.
And since we are on this subject (sort of), how come Kes was part of the Year-of-Hell timeline (both versions), but left immediately after in the main timeline? Since we already saw her 'future' in the episode where she was time-hoping and married Tom, what changed? If the destruction of the Krenim ship reset everything, then we should have seen that exact timeline... but we didn't, we saw a completely different one. So why was Kes' personal timeline still thrown askew, when everyone else's (entire species!) was restored?
I know its bit OT, but it does impact the relationships Tom had, which this thread has broadened into (Voyager 'pairings' in general, and how 'forced' they feel). I liked Paris with Kes - I thought they made a cute couple, and he stood by her even when she got old & grey. It was sweet. Paris & B'lanna are both Alphas - that could never work, IMO.
And to bring this full back-around, I felt the C/7 thing was VERY forced. Chakotay and Janeway (Chakoway? Janeotay? LOL!) had great chemistry, I thought, and the two of them developing into something more over time made a lot of sense. What we got was illogical (unless that was the point - Love never makes sense - but thats a bit cerebral for ST these days).
I know - I was being facetious. I love all those characters and don't think any of them are truly 'macho douches' LOL. In fact, Tucker even got 'knocked up' - it doesn't get less macho than that. As I was typing that, it had dawned on me that we have seen him have children with THREE of his crewmates, which is indeed a bit of a record, I would think.
And since we are on this subject (sort of), how come Kes was part of the Year-of-Hell timeline (both versions), but left immediately after in the main timeline? Since we already saw her 'future' in the episode where she was time-hoping and married Tom, what changed? If the destruction of the Krenim ship reset everything, then we should have seen that exact timeline... but we didn't, we saw a completely different one. So why was Kes' personal timeline still thrown askew, when everyone else's (entire species!) was restored?
I know its bit OT, but it does impact the relationships Tom had, which this thread has broadened into (Voyager 'pairings' in general, and how 'forced' they feel). I liked Paris with Kes - I thought they made a cute couple, and he stood by her even when she got old & grey. It was sweet. Paris & B'lanna are both Alphas - that could never work, IMO.
And to bring this full back-around, I felt the C/7 thing was VERY forced. Chakotay and Janeway (Chakoway? Janeotay? LOL!) had great chemistry, I thought, and the two of them developing into something more over time made a lot of sense. What we got was illogical (unless that was the point - Love never makes sense - but thats a bit cerebral for ST these days).
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Nah: people can have several loves.
When they had to billet 400 Klingons... That was the point were the polyamourous crewmen should have represented and lived their truth with their many husbands and wives they loved.
I wonder if the Klingons would have consented to being Tuvixed for a while?
I wonder if the Klingons would have consented to being Tuvixed for a while?
There's a difference between polyamorous and potentially compatible with more than one person. Romance in Trek is (generally) monogamous, you just might get more than one chance at it.
I'm more "Sleepless in Seattle", appropriate given my geographic location. People who truly loved once are more likely to love again.
4 children: Icheb, Mezoti, and the twins.
Naomi lives with her mother, and we have no idea what happened to the Borg baby.
I read a fanfic that pairs Seven with Sam Wildman. Apparently Sam is bi, and her husband won't mind at all that Sam married an ex-Borg drone while away in the Delta Quadrant.
The Janeway family and Paris family were close, given how many people in both families were connected to Starfleet. Admiral Paris was one of Janeway's mentors and advisors when she attended the Academy.
C/7 relationship didn't exactly originate out of nothing.
7 already expressed romantic interest in Chakotay via the holo simulations she was running in 'Human Error'.
Plus, the reasoning why it was prompted (Unimatrix Zero and her 'relationship' with Axum) was fairly convincing... at least as far as 7 is concerned.
I didn't have an issue with the pairing... but I also didn't necessarily see it lasting much longer after VOY returned to Earth either.
I think the main issue might stem from the fact that the 'real chakotay' hadn't necessarily shown romantic interest in 7 prior to Engame.
But, VOY writers has a tendency to just bring stuff like that up and leave it to the rest of us to think on how it happened (probably off screen).
7 already expressed romantic interest in Chakotay via the holo simulations she was running in 'Human Error'.
Plus, the reasoning why it was prompted (Unimatrix Zero and her 'relationship' with Axum) was fairly convincing... at least as far as 7 is concerned.
I didn't have an issue with the pairing... but I also didn't necessarily see it lasting much longer after VOY returned to Earth either.
I think the main issue might stem from the fact that the 'real chakotay' hadn't necessarily shown romantic interest in 7 prior to Engame.
But, VOY writers has a tendency to just bring stuff like that up and leave it to the rest of us to think on how it happened (probably off screen).
One story I read got them together in a way that makes sense, but goes into some dark territory.
The episode where the Hirogen turned the ship into a killing ground and made the crew think they were other people, unable to remember their real identities, included a Nazi scenario. Seven was a freedom fighter and Chakotay was an American who came to liberate the town.
The story has the premise that Chakotay and Seven's alter-egos had sex, and Seven became pregnant as a result. She did not discover this until some time after that situation had been dealt with and the Hirogen were gone.
To say it was a shock to both of them would be mild, as it was strictly speaking non-consensual (neither of them in their proper, consenting minds). But Chakotay decided that he wanted to give this situation a chance, and so they became close... eventually becoming a family.
Because the writers bungled it, basically.
I think Chakotay and Seven could've been a fascinating couple, if actually given development.
I think Chakotay and Seven could've been a fascinating couple, if actually given development.
Story of Voyager's life. A powerhouse franchise, a great concept, and a strong cast... and highly questionable writing.
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