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Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x07 - "The Serene Squall"

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I respect the English language (including usage of articles).

1. Language evolves.
2. Singular they/them has been in use forever.
3. Enbies are more important than the English language.

You are real human beings to cis people. Why wouldn't you be? I don't think as many people are in the closet anymore. The number in the article is probably more accurate then say ones from decades ago. I like things to be accurate as possible especially for things that are easy to make accurate. Its just the way I am.

Queer people (trans people in particular) are still under threat of genocide. In my country legislation is being enacted to prevent trans people from transitioning legally, socially and medically, despite the science proving that doing such will lead to our deaths.

Queer people are still deeply in the closet, whether knowing that they are queer or not. I did not know I was queer until I was 28 because of how society and family made the idea of self-exploration and my access to knowledge impossible. The more we spread knowledge and experiences the more we learn about ourselves. There's a reason why more people are coming out as trans now than ten years ago: knowledge is spreading. We're meeting other queer people. We're seeing other queer people in our media. Cishet people are growing up with more openly queer friends.

We need to keep pushing and never stop pushing. This is a never-ending battle to protect our community. The second we stop we will be genocided.
 
I think you didn't quite make it to the end of that article. Clearly it is an open question. As for how I'd refer to a person born with one gender but identifying as another, I find that actual use of a person's name is the politest form of address. Here's that last sentence, btw. "Words We're Watching talks about words we are increasingly seeing in use but that have not yet met our criteria for entry."
On this point we agree. I do not enjoy pronouns and prefer full names in actual address.
 
I will not refer to a single individual as "them", even if said individual had multiple personality disorder.
I respect the English language (including usage of articles).
So you can respect a language, but you can't muster up any respect for actual human beings and what they would prefer to be addressed by? Nice priorities. Would you be okay if people constantly treated you with such degradation and disrespect?

Your reasoning for doing so doesn't even hold water, as pointed out, since they/them as a singular pronoun has been around for ages. And even if it hadn't, English is constantly changing with the times, so perhaps it is time for you to evolve a bit as well, lest you get left behind by the language and the rest of civilized society.
 
1. Language evolves.
2. Singular they/them has been in use forever.
3. Enbies are more important than the English language.



Queer people (trans people in particular) are still under threat of genocide. In my country legislation is being enacted to prevent trans people from transitioning legally, socially and medically, despite the science proving that doing such will lead to our deaths.

Queer people are still deeply in the closet, whether knowing that they are queer or not. I did not know I was queer until I was 28 because of how society and family made the idea of self-exploration and my access to knowledge impossible. The more we spread knowledge and experiences the more we learn about ourselves. There's a reason why more people are coming out as trans now than ten years ago: knowledge is spreading. We're meeting other queer people. We're seeing other queer people in our media. Cishet people are growing up with more openly queer friends.

We need to keep pushing and never stop pushing. This is a never-ending battle to protect our community. The second we stop we will be genocided.


Don't get me wrong I'm glad you're being represented in tv and movies especially star trek.
 
I think you didn't quite make it to the end of that article. Clearly it is an open question. As for how I'd refer to a person born with one gender but identifying as another, I find that actual use of a person's name is the politest form of address. Here's that last sentence, btw. "Words We're Watching talks about words we are increasingly seeing in use but that have not yet met our criteria for entry."

I'll be honest and own up to not yet having read the article - I blame Fireproof for making me laugh

With regard to how you refer to someone - I am obviously talking about when you speak of someone who isn't there and most would identify the person by name and then drop to he/she/they/etc as it is within context.

We are drawing things off topic though so, once I have read the article, I'll drop you a PM and we can continue the discussion in a more appropriate manner
 
More of personal curiosity than any real comment but a flop is a 6?
Perhaps not a flop. But close. I did enjoy the Spock, Chapel, Angel scenes. It's basically the lowest rating I'd give where I still enjoy something in the episode, but most of it was bad. So, perhaps 5 is a flop on my scale.

But I'd been enjoying the season so much so far. For me at least, this episode is a great contrast in quality to the rest of the season. But, ok, not a flop!

I'm happy for those who enjoyed it.
 
Perhaps not a flop. But close. I did enjoy the Spock, Chapel, Angel scenes. It's basically the lowest rating I'd give where I still enjoy something in the episode, but most of it was bad. So, perhaps 5 is a flop on my scale.
Fascinating. Truly, I find the numeric scaling used by many to be incredibly interesting. For me, if I use numeric scaling then a flop is like a 3. Something that I find no joy in, like "Code of Honor" or "Catspaw." It generates limited interest or mild disinterest such that reading the wiki article is more fun.
I blame Fireproof for making me laugh
Damn straight.
 
I really enjoyed this episode yet again. I continue to be impressed with the way these characters jump off the screen for me, fully fleshed out and interesting. It's been a marked contrast with Obi Wan, which my partner and I have been watching and finding rather uninvolving as far as characterization goes. There's a certain magic to the way characters like Chapel are being written and performed that's really special, for me.

They/Them is used as a singular pronoun and has been for centuries. Not only is it English, it is considered "proper" English. If that's your only reason, it has now been resolved. If it isn't, then you will continue arguing about it.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they

Thank you! In fact here's Shakespeare using singular 'they' in A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3:

"There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend"
 
Fascinating. Truly, I find the numeric scaling used by many to be incredibly interesting. For me, if I use numeric scaling then a flop is like a 3. Something that I find no joy in, like "Code of Honor" or "Catspaw." It generates limited interest or mild disinterest such that reading the wiki article is more fun.

I've never tried to incorporate the word "flop" into my rating scale before! 5 is basically where I don't find any enjoyment. Six there's minimal enjoyment. However, if a series consistently produces 6s, it's only a matter of time before I bail on it.

7 is what I consider middling. I'm entertained even it's not award winning, classic worthy stuff. I'll be back for more. 8 is above average, very strong, but not quite classic material, but notable.

Whereas some posters save 10 for only the top notch stuff, I actually save both 9 and 10 for that purpose. Both are rare. But I do distinguish between classics and near classics. Both of those are cases where the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Great characters and great story, but altogether it's even more.

I have a much better handle on the upper end of my scale! The lower end is less well defined because I'll bail before really figuring out all the specifics! But there would be some differences. Such as a 5 is bad but there's at least a logic to the plot. Lower ratings would lose the logic. Etc.

But to each their own for how they rate episodes!

Oh, and Catspaw is good! A solid 7 on my scale!
 
Over representation of any group in movies or TV can give people a skewed version of reality in the real world. I prefer to view the world accurately. Here's a lgbtq article about that very thing.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/259571/americans-greatly-overestimate-gay-population.aspx
Boy where to begin with several of your posts.

1st. We as a humans, have no means of measuring how many people are not what you would call heterosexual or have a gender identity that doesn't match the the gender at birth or the gender listed on birth reports. Period. As the only means of measuring this information is by self identification and has only been done by sampling. Unlike places in the world that try and make an accurate (key word try) count of the population of a country, there currently isn't a system of going door to door and asking each person their sexuality or gender identity.

For example, as someone who has worked for the US Census Bureau for almost a decade, I am versed in how data even the door to door attempt to count the entire population of the US isn't fully accurate. And most of the census's work isn't a door to door accounting but a statistical sampling based on its ten year census for various other issues (like the jobs report, the housing survey, ect). For the first time in 2021 the US census actually included in the Household Plus Survey a question about sexual identification and gender identity, with the addendum that it only counted those 18 and older in the household (as you must speak to an adult and you can't assume that an adult would know their Childs sexual orientation or gender identity).

This report is compiled yearly, but data is taken and compiled every two weeks. The survey takes forever and is very detailed (actually asking people to have their last years bills available to go over). that survey of a home took me on average about 35 minutes to do. If someone actually supplied the full amount of data requested to go over, it could easily take hours. I had one go for over 3 and a 1/2 once...The first year it came to 85 % of the adults sampled fully as heterosexual with the gender identity that matched that of their birth or birth record. The sample size of the survey varies between your home representing 450 other homes to as much as 4000. The ones I worked on averaged between your home representing 2000 to 2500 other homes. its one of the largest statistical samplings done that include sexuality and gender identity in the US and done in person. You remain part of the sample minimum for two years, with rotations occurring on 4 year and 10 years.

And I can personally attest that in my area I knew gay people who did not identify as gay in the sample. Same as I knew people of hispanic, latin or Spanish origin that wouldn't report that information accurately to the government because they simply didn't believe that information wouldn't become public. It becomes public record after 75 years.

Now there have been more targeted statistic sampling of age groups that have pointed to recently having more younger people self reporting having a gender identity or sexual orientation that doesn't match their birth gender or being straight. Only time will tell if those numbers are indicative of how society is more open to differences that more and more people are willing to either be open, or even simply identify as something different than the norm.

2. When talking about representation are you talking about trying to match the global population or the population of your country of origin or even the production company of origin. That makes a sizable difference. Since I am from the US, the US is what I have knowledge of. And since a significant amount of media for the world is made by US entertainment companies (even if filmed in locations outside the US, that one that I use a lot). Now if you are comparing representation to the world, tv and film are vastly under showing almost all non white non heterosexual characters to a staggering degree.

Now most people watch a tiny segment of the media that is created or aired in the US. With tens of thousands of shows, one person or family has no means to accurate measure the demographics of the overall industry. But there are business that do just that. And in the US with US production companies gender identity, non heterosexuality. race, and gender still do not equal the most accurate information that the US Census can provide.

And of course they also break down things like the demographics of just the cast, versus the demographics of every character shown. And in neither case does the overall marketplace give enough representation to minorities. Though its has been getting better, especially of some groups. They also breakdown things like scripted content versus reality based content, and also the combined overall. Now one addendum, there have been yearly spikes for certain demographics, where the numbers for a minority group has exceeded the most current known statistics, but they have never maintained that level, historically.

Now as individuals our specific viewing habits very likely don't match the overall market place For some you will see lower than average results, for others you might see higher than average numbers. Some viewers might only consider primary cast, others will see the larger tapestry of all characters shown on a show. As an example in the 70's almost no one on tv was identified as gay, lesbian, trans or bi directly. They did use coded language to indicate that it was likely. But when characters started actually being directly referred to by others are stating for themselves, it was almost always a guest character. When it took to the cast, it first hit supporting characters, and not the leads. Eventually it finally started showing some leads. Which is even to this day fairly rare.

3. Yes skewed representation can have impacts on people and society. And it can be both good and bad. Seeing an more positive view of your own situation can give your encouragement to make your world better. The opposite side is seeing a world more positive for your situation can put you in serious risk if you assume your society is going to behave in the manor of the programming your watching.

In much the same way that media presents a view of humanity where people are vastly more in shape and vastly more attractive then the general population, this can inspire a person to make better life choices, but it also absolutely can cause series body image problems that can lead to someone taking their own life.

These issues have been part of tv and films since their very inception, and continue and in some ways (body image especially) have gotten worse.

And one of the other significantly under represented groups is the elderly on tv and film. Dramatically under the percentage they make of the population in the US.

The Gallup report is correct that in general people due tend to thank their are larger number of minorities in the US. I have no idea on the breakdown on what the belief is of those demographics of a world wide level.
 
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I obviously speak in the opposite. Under-representing the MAJORITY in fiction doesn't matter. They've been overrepresented in it for all of it. It's time to overrepresent the minority a bit.
That latter argument is much more potent: in order to represent minorities you have to be able to do so with strength, which will often mean over-representing them, much like dealing with minority issues in society at large means spending dispoportionate ressources.

But my point was that the earlier argument, that it's fiction so realism doesn't matter, opens up an opponents' argument that therefore representation doesn't matter. It's a self-defeating argument that we should avoid.
 
Perhaps not a flop. But close. I did enjoy the Spock, Chapel, Angel scenes. It's basically the lowest rating I'd give where I still enjoy something in the episode, but most of it was bad. So, perhaps 5 is a flop on my scale.

But I'd been enjoying the season so much so far. For me at least, this episode is a great contrast in quality to the rest of the season. But, ok, not a flop!

I'm happy for those who enjoyed it.

Okay, make it easy, was it a Rumination or Lamentation?
 
So you can respect a language, but you can't muster up any respect for actual human beings and what they would prefer to be addressed by? Nice priorities. Would you be okay if people constantly treated you with such degradation and disrespect?

Your reasoning for doing so doesn't even hold water, as pointed out, since they/them as a singular pronoun has been around for ages. And even if it hadn't, English is constantly changing with the times, so perhaps it is time for you to evolve a bit as well, lest you get left behind by the language and the rest of civilized society.
You are engaging in either/or thinking. I can respect language and people simultaneously. (I am a person of many talents.) But, as been said, we venturing rather far afield here and I am prepared to let the matter drop as long as there are no further aspersions of my ability to respect (respectability?).
 
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