Spoilers Strange New Worlds 1x02 - "Children of The Comet"

[fireproof78]

Does anyone suddenly want to embrace ancient Roman culture because they enjoy the show? Nope.

Why not? People are influenced by a variety of things, and kids find role models in fictional people. But, more than that, art reflects culture. If current art shows people processing trauma then finally culture is acknowledging mental health in a positive way.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Huh. Didn't notice that before. I guess the blinds are closed?

I want to know what's behind this door...

An even bigger room!

 

[Sci]

That is a much more general statement than what was contained in my question. "Influenced" and "media" could mean anything. What I'm saying is that we don't -- and certainly shouldn't -- draw morality from works of fiction, specifically.

But we do! All the time. Public acceptance of rights for transgender people become much much larger after the Amazon Prime series Transparent became popular. Public acceptance of gay rights and same-sex marriage was positively correlated with the popularity of television programs that depicted gay people in a positive manner, such as Will & Grace and Modern Family. Public support for misogynistic politics increased in the late 1990s and early 2000s when anti-feminist programs like The Man Show and Ally McBeal were popular. This shit is incredibly common.

 

[Belz...]

But we do! All the time. Public acceptance of rights for transgender people become much much larger after the Amazon Prime series Transparent became popular. Public acceptance of gay rights and same-sex marriage was positively correlated with the popularity of television programs that depicted gay people in a positive manner, such as Will & Grace and Modern Family. Public support for misogynistic politics increased in the late 1990s and early 2000s when anti-feminist programs like The Man Show and Ally McBeal were popular. This shit is incredibly common.

I'd like you to consider that in this case the causation is the other way around. In other words, a social trend already in progress being picked up by television studios to profit from.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ally McBeal

Oi.

The show was about about smart female lawyers who would sue misogynist men for being misogynists.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

Huh. Didn't notice that before. I guess the blinds are closed?

I want to know what's behind this door...

The turbolift funhouse.

 

[Belz...]

The turbolift funhouse.

Don't!

 

[Sci]

I'd like you to consider that this is a case of correlation rather than causation, or at least causation, but the other way around. In other words, a social trend already in progress being picked up by television studios.

I'm certainly find with the argument that these are self-reinforcing cycles to some extent, but there's also clearly a level of influence at play from media beyond just media reflecting trends. The transgender rights movement was virtually invisible before Transparent. Media influence people's values much more than you are arguing -- and that is why artists have a moral obligation not to perpetuate harmful ideas like toxic stoicism.

Oi.

The show was about about smart female lawyers who would sue misogynist men for being misogynists.

Callista Flockhart literally appeared on the cover of Time with the headline "Is Feminism Dead?" The entire show framed women are obsessed with finding men, and framed an environment that in real life would be a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen as fun as sexy. It had incredibly regressive ideas about women's roles.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I'm in the camp that's not as sold as everyone else but it sure is a slick looking show and Anson Mount is one handsome sonuvabitch as Pike. In any case I prefer what they're aiming for here than what was happening over on Picard.

The Universal Translator works as required by the given episode or film. It's just another vehicle to convey that a race is unfamiliar to a crew and heighten the tensions over communication. Sometimes it works instantly, sometimes it takes the software a little time to work out a translation.

I've always said the worst thing to do with the Universal Translator is to draw attention to it. When they don't try to bring into focus I can generally forget about it and roll with it but it all seems to fall apart when they try to explain it.

 

[Belz...]

I'm certainly find with the argument that these are self-reinforcing cycles to some extent, but there's also clearly a level of influence at play from media beyond just media reflecting trends.

I'll concede that there's a... how could I say this? A cyclical influence between fiction and culture... but it's a very broad effect. Having a character in a TV show, for instance, not dealing with grief in a way you think is healthy won't convince people to deal with grief in messed up ways. That argument is too much like "video games make people violent."

 

[Captain Jollydark]

Exactly my point! They absorb it from culture. From the stuff that matters. People -- including children -- can tell the difference between reality and fiction. Quite trivially, in fact. They know one matters and the other doesn't (unless it's to argue about pointless minutiae on internet forums! Then it's WAR!)


That is a much more general statement than what was contained in my question. "Influenced" and "media" could mean anything. What I'm saying is that we don't -- and certainly shouldn't -- draw morality from works of fiction, specifically.

Take HBO's Rome. Great series, but most of the characters are, by today's standards, morally bankrupt. Does anyone suddenly want to embrace ancient Roman culture because they enjoy the show? Nope.

Roman culture in HBO's Rome was drawn from the arts and entertainment and literature of the period, not only of the Romans themselves, but of those people they conquered and enslaved. I know saying this will not change your mind, because you seem to be pretty entrenched on the matter, but people in a society use the arts to communicate and share cultural perspectives and ideas. It's why certain governments ban certain kinds of fiction and film.

 

[Belz...]

Roman culture in HBO's Rome was drawn from the arts and entertainment and literature of the period, not only of the Romans themselves, but of those people they conquered and enslaved. I know saying this will not change your mind, because you seem to be pretty entrenched on the matter, but people in a society use the arts to communicate and share cultural perspectives and ideas. It's why certain governments ban certain kinds of fiction and film.

I'm not sure why it would or wouldn't change my mind because it has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that as a modern audience no one is expecting us to change our morals to match the characters in Rome. And by the same token, the same applies for Star Trek.

In fact, your post seems to agree with what I'm saying, which is that art reflects reality rather than the other way around!

 

[Captain Jollydark]

I'll concede that there's a... how could I say this? A cyclical influence between fiction and culture... but it's a very broad effect. Having a character in a TV show, for instance, not dealing with grief in a way you think is healthy won't convince people to deal with grief in messed up ways. That argument is too much like "video games make people violent."

It used to bother me a lot when I was a kid when one of the Cartwright's on Bonanza got married because I knew from viewing other shows (like Star Trek and well, pretty much everything) that the woman would die. Always. And the next week could be a comedy episode. It was weird, because why did they want me to be sad if the guy who lost his wife didn't even remember the next week. But it was pretty evident they wanted the audience to sympathize with the loss when we watched..

 

[Belz...]

It used to bother me a lot when I was a kid when one of the Cartwright's on Bonanza got married because I knew from viewing other shows (like Star Trek and well, pretty much everything) that the woman would die. Always. And the next week could be a comedy episode. It was weird, because why did they want me to be sad if the guy who lost his wife didn't even remember the next week. But it was pretty evident they wanted the audience to sympathize with the loss when we watched..

Well, pulling emotional strings is a time-tested way to get people to watch and sponsors to throw money at you!

 

[Airmandan]

I do like how Uhura's cadet dress uniform looks exactly like uniforms a hundred years later. Goes with the military style of always pulling up old ideas. Plus, the Star trek standard of cadet uniforms ending up being duty uniforms.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

I'm not sure why it would or wouldn't change my mind because it has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is that as a modern audience no one is expecting us to change our morals to match the characters in Rome. And by the same token, the same applies for Star Trek.

In fact, your post seems to agree with what I'm saying, which is that art reflects reality rather than the other way around!

Really? That's odd. You seem to be choosing obtuseness. But okay. I like my fiction to engage me emotionally as wellas dazzle me visually, which often means the characters have and show feelings as the circumstances require. To me, loss of family is a circumstance that requires a show of emotion.

 

[Mr Awe]

Ooh, are you thinking what I'm thinking? They should bring back the "comedy music" bits at the end of episodes when characters joke around.

Well, not as a rule of thumb. But if the situation warrants it, sure. But not in a more serious cases, such as Kirk's brother dying. A somber more reflective moment would be more appropriate then.

 

[Belz...]

Really? That's odd. You seem to be choosing obtuseness.

Obtuseness implies dishonestly, and I'd much rather be thought an idiot, instead. So assume I'm an idiot and explain in what way you and I disagree, because I don't see it. I'm clearly disagreeing with sci on this issue.

But okay. I like my fiction to engage me emotionally as wellas dazzle me visually, which often means the characters have and show feelings as the circumstances require. To me, loss of family is a circumstance that requires a show of emotion.

We are in agreement here. See?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I do like how Uhura's cadet dress uniform looks exactly like uniforms a hundred years later. Goes with the military style of always pulling up old ideas. Plus, the Star trek standard of cadet uniforms ending up being duty uniforms.

I thought it looked fairly comfortable. To play up the prank aspect of the plot I was surprised the dress uniform wasn't more cumbersome.

 

[Mr Awe]

TL;DR: Do what SNW and DIS are doing: Depict grief and trauma honestly. Don't do what TOS and most of TNG did by ignoring them.

In small doses, sure. But I'm not watching a series mired in it. If I want that, I'll just watch the frigging news (which I do so I've got enough of that).

There is, of course, a balance that can be struck between the trauma and adventure, aspirations, exploration, and the more uplifting themes. SNW looks like they're capable of that balance. So, I'm feeling optimistic.