Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Midquest]

And here I was watching the episode thinking that they depicted law enforcement with just the right moments of excess and, yes, restraint to make them seem realistic to the experiences of quite a lot of people with whom I've worked.

It didn't need to be subtle. It didn't need to show every angle. Trek is often unsubtle, even in its greatest hours. It just needed to shed some light on a social reality, on things that really happen, and as far as I can tell, it did.

The fact that it has raised ire tells me Star Trek is still doing its job.

They could remember enough Trek lore to get the punk rock guy back...but not remember that Picard and Guinan had already met...!?!?!?

Hell, they remembered that Guinan was on Earth, and had been so for a long long time...but they didn't remember anything else about the episode...???

Or they didn't forget. Matalas has commented that since there was no TNG crew as we know them to go back in time, Guinan never met Picard. And the punk on the bus might simply be remembering the after image of what happened to him before time was broken.

 

[Lord Garth]

There's a time to play the "I can see both sides" card and there's a time not to. This is one of those times not to. Sometimes it really is a "yes" or "no" and a "right" or "wrong". Treating people as lesser because they're not the same as you is wrong. You can dress it up as something else as much as you like, but the end result is the same.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Star Trek: Picard is depicting ICE as a violent, abusive white supremacist paramilitary organization that engages in arbitrary arrests and assaults against innocent people on the basis of race, because it is a violent, abusive white supremacist paramilitary organization that engages in arbitrary arrests and assaults against innocent people on the basis of race.

I feel also like this is a weird place to draw the line. ICE is evil and does exactly this on most other shows. Star Trek is supposed to be ahead of the curve and this is stuff that you can watch on FBI on the same streaming channel.

Is it a bit weird that it's ACTUALLY ICE and not some made up Department of Security like in the Deep Space Nine episodes set in the same year? Yes. Probably. However, I felt those episodes were TOO nice on the guards running actual ghettos.

 

[Airmandan]

No, it isn't. You went on a diatribe about the state of TV the way it used to be, made claims of how I wanted it to be, and then I don't know where you got the idea that I'm against complex villains, especially since I remarked earlier on the subject of complex villains.

In this case, ICE is the bad guy because in real life ICE is the bad guy. They enforce unjust laws, and engage in exploitation and marginalization of immigrants, legal or not. You ever see an ICE raid show up? I have, right here in my own dinky little state, and the way immigrants are rounded up and treated, you'd think they were all card carrying terrorists.

What you want is to indulge in is the two sides debate, that just because someone does bad things doesn't mean they're bad, but you also have to take into account that if someone does enough bad things, or things that are so bad as to cause massive harm to entire populations, there is no redemption for them by doing a few good things, or for having a few good traits. That is what people have been telling you, and you've been ignoring.

Star Trek writers have chosen to focus on the evil that these men and women do, rather than on how nice they are to their girlfriends, or their pets. They want you to see, without it being softened because our media softens a lot of police and military action, that what these people are doing is wrong. That it is unequivocally wrong, regardless of their intentions.

You can say all day until you're blue in the face that they're not all bad, but it does not matter if you're the person they're coming after, because they will do their duty, their unjust, inequitable duty, and see you not as a human being, but as a task to be completed. Humans don't fare well when they're treated like numbers in a ledger.

wow.

 

[Sci]

Or they didn't forget. Matalas has commented that since there was no TNG crew as we know them to go back in time, Guinan never met Picard. And the punk on the bus might simply be remembering the after image of what happened to him before time was broken.

Another possibility is that he encountered the evil Confederation Timeline versions of Kirk and Spock (having traveled back in time on the same mission as our Kirk and Spock in TVH) in 1986 -- and instead of our Spock giving him the Vulcan nerve pinch, Evil Kirk and Evil Spock just beat the shit out of him.

 

[Amaris]

Another possibility is that he encountered the evil Confederation Timeline versions of Kirk and Spock (having traveled back in time on the same mission as our Kirk and Spock in TVH) in 1986 -- and instead of our Spock giving him the Vulcan nerve pinch, Evil Kirk and Evil Spock just beat the shit out of him.

Works for me! I was too busy laughing to give it much consideration. I thought it was great they got Kirk Thatcher to reprise not only his role, but a new song, too, updated for today!

 

[Sci]

Works for me! I was too busy laughing to give it much consideration. I thought it was great they got Kirk Thatcher to reprise not only his role, but a new song, too, updated for today!

Oh man, it was updated?? I'll have to go back and give it a listen. When I first heard the tune I burst out laughing, and then spent part of the scene explaining the callback to TVH to my fiancee, so I missed it if there were different lyrics.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Guinan being in a REALLY bad mood in 2024 is surprising but not a bad time. Mind you, if she truly hated being on Earth, I'm surprised she stayed for 200 years.

 

[Midquest]

Another possibility is that he encountered the evil Confederation Timeline versions of Kirk and Spock (having traveled back in time on the same mission as our Kirk and Spock in TVH) in 1986 -- and instead of our Spock giving him the Vulcan nerve pinch, Evil Kirk and Evil Spock just beat the shit out of him.

Yes! That thought occurred to me before I read Matalas's take. It's surreal to imagine, and goes well with the idea upthread of Evil Kirk and Spock angrily having to retrieve a whale when the probe shows up. I sort of want to see that version of the story...

 

[Amaris]

Guinan being in a REALLY bad mood in 2024 is surprising but not a bad time. Mind you, if she truly hated being on Earth, I'm surprised she stayed for 200 years.

I'm wondering if they'll expand on that, or if we've essentially got the basics and they're going to roll with it. I mean, either way it's fine, but I think our own recent history has made some changes in the Star Trek canon. Not a lot, clearly, but I'm wondering if the Eugenics wars will be slightly modified to fit into our own timeline better, because it's clear to me that Picard wants that analog between Star Trek's 21st century and our 21st century to more closely align.

 

[Amaris]

Oh man, it was updated?? I'll have to go back and give it a listen. When I first heard the tune I burst out laughing, and then spent part of the scene explaining the callback to TVH to my fiancee, so I missed it if there were different lyrics.

It was, yes! It starts off with "35 years later" this time.

Here:

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[Awesome Possum]

That's two Hitler references from you already. Why not go for a third? Seriously though....and I'm the one that's supposedly shouting people down?

You're defending concentration camps, it's valid.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Also this Guinan's personality is nothing like 19th century Guinan...

My personality from 2000 is nothing like my personality now, time tends to do that to people.

 

[Jayson1]

No, it isn't. You went on a diatribe about the state of TV the way it used to be, made claims of how I wanted it to be, and then I don't know where you got the idea that I'm against complex villains, especially since I remarked earlier on the subject of complex villains.

In this case, ICE is the bad guy because in real life ICE is the bad guy. They enforce unjust laws, and engage in exploitation and marginalization of immigrants, legal or not. You ever see an ICE raid show up? I have, right here in my own dinky little state, and the way immigrants are rounded up and treated, you'd think they were all card carrying terrorists.

What you want is to indulge in is the two sides debate, that just because someone does bad things doesn't mean they're bad, but you also have to take into account that if someone does enough bad things, or things that are so bad as to cause massive harm to entire populations, there is no redemption for them by doing a few good things, or for having a few good traits. That is what people have been telling you, and you've been ignoring.

Star Trek writers have chosen to focus on the evil that these men and women do, rather than on how nice they are to their girlfriends, or their pets. They want you to see, without it being softened because our media softens a lot of police and military action, that what these people are doing is wrong. That it is unequivocally wrong, regardless of their intentions.

You can say all day until you're blue in the face that they're not all bad, but it does not matter if you're the person they're coming after, because they will do their duty, their unjust, inequitable duty, and see you not as a human being, but as a task to be completed. Humans don't fare well when they're treated like numbers in a ledger.

The Mob and Serial Killers are and were bad things in real life as well just like ICE. Didn't make the writers of The Sopranos or Dexter dumb things down to tell a simplistic story about good vs evil. Mental Illness another serious issue. Somehow Crazy Ex Girlfriend figured out how to say some deep stuff while also being fun to boot. Cops being bad. Well we had "The Shield" for that. Racism being bad. Everything from The Watchmen to Atlanta.

You can say the show doesn't have time for this which might be true and it leads to my biggest argument that they crammed to much story into this thing to do real justice to any of the storylines. We got 4 plotlines, a mystery box, a Picard backstroy about his mom and 3 social issues and a mixed up Q and I got to think maybe less would have been more. If you want to do ICE right then cut some of this other stuff out and focus more on ICE.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

Some of the specific negative reactions to both this episode of Picard and the ending of last week’s Discovery S04 finale made me feel proud to be a Star Trek fan.

While most major franchise seem to barely be able to pay lip service to the lofty and noble ideals they claim to espouse, Trek keeps on trying to live up to those ideals, and laying it all out there in the open.

Additionally, subtlety can be a good thing, and has its place, but ‪‪I don’t think it’s a virtue in and of itself, and plenty of messages are better conveyed with a rather blunt directness.

 

[Amaris]

The Mob and Serial Killers are and were bad things in real life as well just like ICE. Didn't make the writers of The Sopranos or Dexter dumb things down to tell a simplistic story about good vs evil. Mental Illness another serious issue. Somehow Crazy Ex Girlfriend figured out how to say some deep stuff while also being fun to boot. Cops being bad. Well we had "The Shield" for that. Racism being bad. Everything from The Watchmen to Atlanta. You can say the show doesn't have time for this which might be true and it leads to my biggest argument that they crammed to much story into this thing to do real justice to any of the storylines. We got 4 plotlines, a mystery box, a Picard backstroy about his mom and 3 social issues and a mixed up Q and I got to think maybe less would have been more. If you want to do ICE right then cut some of this other stuff out and focus more on ICE.

Here's a question: why do you have a problem with ICE, a horrible, unjust arm of a system that abuses immigrants, being portrayed as a horrible, unjust arm of a system that abuses immigrants, and instead want it to be portrayed as decent human beings who aren't as bad as they seem? That's not being about both sides. You don't look at Jeffrey Dahmer and say "yeah, he ate some people, but he had wonderful people skills."

We know they're human, and we know they have personal lives with their own problems. We also know they're engaging in abusive acts against other human beings. Why, on this earth, should there be one iota of effort dedicated to making them look better than what they actually are, Jayson?

 

[Lord Garth]

Anyway, it's 2:20 AM for me so I'm going to bed. Someone's probably going to respond to something I said. Well, in case I'm not able to get to it because I'll be sleeping: whatever @Amaris says, I agree with.

 

[Amaris]

Anyway, it's 2:20 AM for me so I'm going to bed. Someone's probably going to respond to something I said. Well, in case I'm not able to get to it because I'll be sleeping: whatever @Amaris says, I agree with.

Yeah, it's 2:25 AM here, so I'll be off to bed, too. Going forward, everyone should just assume I said something deeply poignant, heartfelt, and/or witty.

 

[Sci]

The Mob and Serial Killers are and were bad things in real life as well just like ICE. Didn't make the writers of The Sopranos or Dexter dumb things down to tell a simplistic story about good vs evil.

The Sopranos was an examination of the Mafia from the point of view of Mafia members and their families. If it had been written from the point of view of Tony Soprano's victims, Tony would have come across way less sympathetic or three-dimensional.

And of course, the whole point of The Sopranos is that even if you do look at the lives of Mafia members in detail, with sympathy, that they are still monsters who have sold their souls and are evil for the things they have done. The entire point of the series finale was that Tony had corrupted his entire family into complicity with his evil.

Star Trek: Picard's ICE subplot is from the point of view of a victim of ICE's brutality. It has no creative obligation to depict events from the point of view of abusers.

If you want to do ICE right then cut some of this other stuff out and focus more on ICE.

Nah. PIC is doing a very nice job of encapsulating in succinct, dramatic fashion how abusive and authoritarian the American way of life is, and depicting ICE's brutality against Latinos is part of that.

 

[thribs]

Yeah. I wouldn’t have called them ICE as well. Give them a different name to differentiate the Trek universe from ours.