Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[JoaquinSlowly]

With the appearance at the end of this episode of Penelope Mitchell's Renee Picard outside the Jackson Roykirk Plaza NASA/Europa Mission facility in that Europa Mission shirt, reading the Dixon Hill novel The Pallid Son, the object of Q's would-be shenanigans, it made me think of the super quick flash of an image of an astronaut from the final January 21st trailer, right between the 18 and 19 second marks.

Could this be Renee on the Europa Mission?

 

[Mistral]

wow. Ep 4 S2- Jackson Roykirk Plaza, Trace Torme as the author- Q's "snap" not working-so many eggs!

 

[Llywela]

Wow, this thread was quite a ride. The episode only dropped in the UK less than an hour ago and you guys are at 45 pages already!

I'm enjoying the season, and I enjoyed this episode. Plenty of people have been complaining that the show needs more 'filler' to flesh out the characters and give them some breathing space - well, the misadventures of Cris Rios and the hijinks of Raffi and Seven on his trail are giving us just that, as well as telling a 100% Star Trek story about shining light into dark places and holding out the possibility of a better future, if we could only choose to change.

 

[mattman8907]

Speaking of Roykirk, according to a reference book, he'll die in October of 2022. so im just like Bye Jack. been nice knowing ya.

 

[SG-17]

Let's get this straight. Law enforcement in the United States is inherently racist and fascist because it's origins lie in slave catchers and strike breaking Pinkertons from the mid-19th century.

It cannot be reformed or improved, only broken down and something new built.

 

[eschaton]

Also you are looking at it the wrong way. It is not about making them look better. It about making them look realistic. You need to trust the audience more and it's ability to comprehend the complex duality of human nature. Good people can do bad things. Bad people can do good things. People understand this because they understand these instincts from just understanding themselves. To do otherwise is to disrespect their intelligence and their own ability to understand ethics and morality on their own.

I think humanizing villains - particularly low level ones who are part of real-world institutions - is important in stories that engage in social criticism. Otherwise people might get the mistaken idea it's "bad guys" which are the problem, rather than bad systems, and you just need to replace the "bad guys" with "good guys."

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

You engage in the same disingenuous argument another poster did, by shifting blame off of the system itself, and onto individuals to act up against systemic abuse. I exaggerated nothing, by the way. Right now the United States is making way for Ukrainian refugees. Meanwhile, it told other immigrants (most of them with dark brown or black skin) seeking safe haven in the US not to come. The exact words of the Vice President were "do not come."

Ukraine is being actively invaded by Russia, it's an active war zone.

Guatamala's problem is directly linked to the illegal/illicit Narcotic problem in Central & South America along with using illegal border crossing as a method of drug smuggling.

According to your own link:

Ms Harris has described her task as finding solutions to tackle the root causes of the border crisis, including corruption and the lack of economic opportunities. Her staff say this first visit is primarily an information-gathering trip.

In a news conference alongside Guatemalan President Alejandro Giammattei, she warned against illegal migration to the US, saying: "Do not come. Do not come. The United States will continue to enforce our laws and secure our borders."

She added: "If you come to our border, you will be turned back."

Ms Harris said she wanted the US and Guatemala to "work together" to find solutions to "long-standing problems".

She said people must be given a "sense of hope that help is on the way".

"It must be coupled with relationships of trust. It must be coupled with tangible outcomes, in terms of what we do as leaders to convince people that there is a reason to be hopeful about their future and the future of their children," Ms Harris added.

President Giammattei defended his government's own record of fighting corruption and said the fight against drug trafficking should be an key part of tackling the issue.

He announced a new processing centre for migrants who had been sent back from the US and Mexico and said that the focus for both countries should be on creating prosperity.

One the MAJOR long standing problems is the flow of illegal narcotics from Central/South America into the US.

A giant chunk of that comes from the border by illegal entry and has caused the outflow of illegal migration.

In Latin America, the TCOs often resort to extraordinary violence to address challenges by rivals, compel behavior of the local populace, and resist attempts by the local government to check their actions. This violence severely destabilizes the entire hemisphere. Closer to home, TCO violence is a significant contributor to the out-migration that has driven the consistently large numbers of migrants arriving at the United States southern border. Indeed, from October to December 2020, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and its Border Patrol interdicted an average of 72,233 migrants at the southwest border, which translates to 1.6 migrants every minute. Most come from the Northern Triangle countries of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, although of late, relatively large numbers of Mexican nationals are being interdicted trying to cross the U.S. border.


The illegal drug trade provides a vast source of funding for the TCOs. This funding is augmented by illicit gains derived from corruption, shake downs, and “protection” rackets; human trafficking; and the smuggling of other contraband such as illegal wildlife. But trafficking in illegal narcotics provides the bulk of funding. Leaving aside for a moment the increased border control measures associated with the COVID-19 pandemic, this trafficking typically occurs across two main vectors: the land border and the maritime border. That’s not to say that TCOs don’t engage in drug shipments via mail or through air corridors, commercial or otherwise, but the majority of drug trafficking activity into the United States occurs across the land border and from the sea.

You need to stop the flow of illegal narcotics destablizing the USA first.
Stabilize the local economies and get rid of the power / influence of the local drug cartels.

I have direct experience with ICE screwing around with people I care about, as do the people I work with who help deliver the food, clothing, and other supplies to various border camps. Once again, I am glad you were able to enter the country with enough money and accommodation, but your story is not typical of the US, not anymore, and especially not if your country is on our non-desirables list.

Countless Millions of people legally enter the US and get granted citizenship. That's disingenuous to say my story is "Atypical" when it has nothing to do with "Desirables" and more to do with combating the illicit narcotics going In/Out of a country illegally.

This episode of Picard was correct in how it portrayed ICE, how it portrayed the bureaucracy of the system. It was tame about abuses, but you can't turn off too many people because even this little peek behind the curtain was enough to inflame the indignities of comfortable people, which is good. I want Star Trek to make people who are complacent uncomfortable. The show has a long history for standing up against injustice and inequity. That legacy needs to continue, and AFAIC, Picard is taking heavy swings at it.

Yet you mention nothing of the "ROOT CAUSES" of the problem, you only talk about the symptoms.

 

[Serveaux]

Open borders is the solution to all this, as far as I'm concerned.

Just let everybody in.

That's how the majority of our ancestors got here. So fuck all this noise and fuck ICE.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

Open borders is the solution to all this, as far as I'm concerned.

Just let everybody in.

That's how the majority of our ancestors got here. So fuck all this noise and fuck ICE.

Nobody in the modern Nation-State era supports Open Borders.

That creates more problems than it solves.

 

[Hythlodeus]

wait, so the US who used narcotics to destabilize numerous Central American countries has a problem with narcotics destabilizing them? well, maybe don't start an avalanche if you're on your way downhill, and certainly don't use it as an excuse for whatever fascist methods you currently imply.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Nobody in the modern Nation-State era supports Open Borders.

That creates more problems than it solves.

then call me Nobody

 

[Jayson1]

I think humanizing villains - particularly low level ones who are part of real-world institutions - is important in stories that engage in social criticism. Otherwise people might get the mistaken idea it's "bad guys" which are the problem, rather than bad systems, and you just need to replace the "bad guys" with "good guys."

I agree but I wasn't even looking at it that deep. I was looking it more from a storytelling perspective. The more well rounded you can make a character the better character you get. The more nuance you add to a story the more it actually makes the viewer actually think about what the writer is trying to say. If you can find something new to say about a issue it is even better. Anything that cuts through the clutter of all the stuff you have heard a million times on social media or even seen on other tv shows.

 

[ThankQ]

So, space ships, time travel, Borg, Q... but a few asshole cops? THAT'S unbelievable!

 

[Trekker4747]

I agree but I wasn't even looking at it that deep. I was looking it more from a storytelling perspective. The more well rounded you can make a character the better character you get. The more nuance you add to a story the more it actually makes the viewer actually think about what the writer is trying to say. If you can find something new to say about a issue it is even better. Anything that cuts through the clutter of all the stuff you have heard a million times on social media or even seen on other tv shows.

You're right. In fact more WWII movies should be more nuanced and see things from the Nazis' perspective.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I agree but I wasn't even looking at it that deep. I was looking it more from a storytelling perspective. The more well rounded you can make a character the better character you get. The more nuance you add to a story the more it actually makes the viewer actually think about what the writer is trying to say. If you can find something new to say about a issue it is even better. Anything that cuts through the clutter of all the stuff you have heard a million times on social media or even seen on other tv shows.

Sorry, but nobody does that with a "character" who's on screen for only a couple of minutes. Did you ever complain about Cardassian prison camp guards or judges being one-note?

 

[Jayson1]

You're right. In fact more AWE movies should be more nuanced and see things from the Nazis' perspective.

Schindler's List is told from the perspective of a guy who worked with the Nazi's and also has the story about Ralph Fiennes a Nazi character. Like I said it's not about making them look good. It's about making things realistic or authentic. I am all for shutting ICE down and arresting people who abuse their power but like I also said. Fiction follows different rules than real life.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I'm enjoying the season, and I enjoyed this episode. Plenty of people have been complaining that the show needs more 'filler' to flesh out the characters and give them some breathing space - well, the misadventures of Cris Rios and the hijinks of Raffi and Seven on his trail are giving us just that, as well as telling a 100% Star Trek story about shining light into dark places and holding out the possibility of a better future, if we could only choose to change.

I'm enjoying the season, too, and even this episode, although I thought it was the weakest so far. (I'm a bit concerne because the first one was the strongest and it's declined for me, so I hope it'll pick up again).

As for the bolded, I cannot speak for "people," but for me, "filler" and "slower/ character work/ breathing space" are not snonymous. The latter is great (and truth be told, if well written, I always prefer it to a more action-driven episode). "Filler" is when whatever is on the screen (could even be action stuff) does not land with me and seems like the writers are spinning their wheels.

nd I really need a new keyboard.

 

[Jayson1]

Sorry, but nobody does that with a "character" who's on screen for only a couple of minutes. Did you ever complain about Cardassian prison camp guards or judges being one-note?

Which is why I say the season and this episode in particular has to much story crammed in it. To make this episode better you basically got rewrite the whole thing. Dump the Guinan stuff. Dump the car chase. Make room for more characters exploring and learning about 2024.

 

[Serveaux]

Nobody in the modern Nation-State era supports Open Borders.

That creates more problems than it solves.

"Respectful debate" doesn't consist of unsupported generalizations and flatfooted assertions.

In fact many* people do support the idea.

Care to have another go?

*"Many" being defined as "more defensible a claim than "nobody."

 

[GNDN18]

Because a certain segment of Star Trek fans are reactionaries who were attracted by the show's traditional embrace of a space paramilitary organization and who are deeply invested in preserving society's existing hierarchies of class, race, gender identity, sexual orientation, and/or religion.

Tongo Rad would agree.