Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Guy Gardener]

I think if a foreigner has no prior criminal history, they should be given a path to citizenship. If they do have a criminal history, then I think it should be case-by-case because I don't think "one size fits all". And I don't think families should be split up.

As far as where fans stand ideologically, those of you who are right-wing should know by now that Star Trek is left-leaning. So if you're fuming about "Oh my God! Look how they portray ICE!!!!" that's what I call "mock outrage" because you had to have figured that's what would happen. What exactly were any of you expecting? Don't kid yourselves.

When they time-travel into the past, a crewmember being caught by the authorities is nothing new. Kirk was caught on an Airforce Base and thought to be a spy. Chekov was caught on a Naval Vessel (the Enterprise) and thought to be a Soviet Agent. Now it's Rios' turn.

Which transitions into my being able to say I love when Seven and Raffi run from the cops and beam out when the cops think they have them. Reminds me of when Security chased Kirk, Gillian, McCoy, and Chekov in TVH. "Freeze!"

The TOS Movies liked having a maverick crew. The crew in PIC, made up of Ex-Starfleet and Non-Starfleet personnel (until some of them became active Starfleet again), is made up of mavericks as well.

Archer was caught by the Nazis.

B'Elanna was caught by meth making white supremacist hillbillies.

Entering the country illegally is criminal.

Overstaying a Visa is illegal.

There is no "easy" path to citizenship available after you have burnt those bridges.

The problem with dumping Rios at a bus station in Mexico, is that the Mexican police are also going to be miffed that he can't prove that he's Mexican. The US Government can only deport him to a country that will accept him?

The Secret Service might get involved, because they track time travelers irl.

 

[Jayson1]

Are you defending what I think you're defending? I'm not talking about writing. I'm talking being fair to people who have done nothing wrong except to want to live a better life.

I'm not defending anything ICE has done. I am all for sending any ICE agent who has abused their power to jail. Once again this is FICTION. Not everything is about taking sides. It's about story telling and writing characters that are interesting and feel real.

 

[Amaris]

Your right. Their isn't two sides. Things are complex. Their is usually hundreds of sides and angles to every situation. No two people think exactly alike. Their is multiple agendas coming into conflict with each other on a daily basis and that doesn't even touch on the subconscious fears and desires and insecurities that factor into creating human motive coming into conflict with real world pragmatic situations that can hinder or help someone or even hurt them in ways that even people making the rules can't predict or comprehend.

It is very easy to philosophize about how many ways there are to view something when you're not being shoved into a van and left on the border to fend for yourself (if you're lucky. There are immigrants being sent to countries they've never been, and left to fend for themselves). The luxury of finding nuance in everything, regardless of whether it's beneficial or not, is generally referred to as "navel gazing," because while it might make you feel better, it does nothing for the people who are at the mercy of destructive political and social policies.

I'm not defending anything ICE has done. I am all for sending any ICE agent who has abused their power to jail. Once again this is FICTION. Not everything is about taking sides. It's about story telling and writing characters that are interesting and feel real.

The power itself is the abuse. It's easy to say "follow the law" if you're not the one being targeted by it.

 

[Lord Garth]

Archer was caught by the Nazis.

B'Elanna was caught by meth making white supremacist hillbillies.

To paraphrase Will Smith, do you know what the difference between your examples and my examples are? My examples make Star Trek look good. TOS, the movies. You bring up shitty VOY and ENT.

 

[Hythlodeus]

And Hitler was nice to his dog and his girlfriend.

To Blondie, his dog, he actually was. To Eva Braun? Debatable

 

[Hythlodeus]

Sheep believe what the shepherd tells them. Do you think with video cameras EVERYWHERE that ICE agents beat people?

As for "separating" children from "parents", you are aware that a good percentage of the "parents" are NOT the kids parents. They buy them from the real parents so they can try to sneak in as families.

The only time a real agent would even be close to the Picard version, is if the illegal entrant is causing trouble (violent, inciting, et al). And that's just until they regain control.

But again, that's the facility that Obama built to hold illegal aliens sneaking in, so....

So, the multiverse IS real

 

[bryce]

I just realized something...wasn't there an episode of Trek, the Bell Riots episode, where some of the DS9/Defiant crew beamed down to 24th century Earth, and O'Brian said something about how it was really bad down there...? Or was that another time period???

Because I wonder if the Confederation is a re-instatement of that same totalitarian government that came about because the Bell Riots went a different way...?

(Funny thing about that episode now...no way that people in the Sanctuary District would all have cell phones with cameras and ways to upload their stories to the net. I seem to recall that a plot point of that episode was that the internet was cut off in the Sanctuary Districts and nobody could tell their story? But of course when that episode was filmed, the internet and the web were still very new, and ubiquitous cell phones weren't a thing that anyone could predict. So in my headcannon the government was using very targeted cellular and wifi jammers, and had similar anti-drone technology.

Next...why did Guinan not recognize Picard, since they met in the past and that meeting supposedly had such an impact on her that she never forgot Picard and that cemented their friendship and her loyalty to him.

Also, 10-Forward was named because it was "Deck 10, Forward Section"... not because it's the Earth street address of a bar she once owned.

Also this Guinan's personality is nothing like 19th century Guinan...

They could remember enough Trek lore to get the punk rock guy back...but not remember that Picard and Guinan had already met...!?!?!?

Hell, they remembered that Guinan was on Earth, and had been so for a long long time...but they didn't remember anything else about the episode...???

I never thought about Jurati being the future Borg Queen, which is why her face is covered. Now I think it's definately true.

Um...so when the timeline is restored, I wonder if they will have the old La Sirena back, or still have the Confederation version. There should actually be *two* versions of the ship after this...but I have a feeling that Q will do his *SNAP* and things will be reset.

So I guess Seven should have taken Tom Paris up in his offer of taking driving lessons on the holodeck. (I am *sure* that he made the offer!)

 

[Jayson1]

It is very easy to philosophize about how many ways there are to view something when you're not being shoved into a van and left on the border to fend for yourself. The luxury of finding nuance in everything, regardless of whether it's beneficial or not, is generally referred to as "navel gazing," because while it might make you feel better, it does nothing for the people who are at the mercy of destructive political and social policies.

Then maybe they shouldn't bother to tell the story then because everything you said they shouldn't do is exactly what you do to create interesting bad guys in stories. So are you saying then that fiction should be nothing but noble people giving lectures about why things are bad and using one note cartoon baddies as proof as to why that is the case? If that is the case then I am glad the golden age of tv gave us The Sopranos,Breaking Bad and so forth before the new wave of storytelling came in.

 

[Lord Garth]

I just realized something...wasn't there an episode of Trek, the Bell Riots episode, where some of the DS9/Defiant crew beamed down to 24th century Earth, and O'Brian said something about how it was really bad down there...? Or was that another time period???

Sisko arrived at the end of August 2024. Picard's in April.

 

[Amaris]

Then maybe they shouldn't bother to tell the story then because everything you said they shouldn't do is exactly what you do to create interesting bad guys in stories. So are you saying then that fiction should be nothing but noble people giving lectures about why things are bad and using one note cartoon baddies as proof as to why that is the case? If that is the case then I am glad the golden age of tv gave us The Sopranos,Breaking Bad and so forth before the new wave of storytelling came in.

This has nothing to do with what we were talking about, Jayson. You just created a non-sequitur filled with assumption and foregone conclusions that I never said. If this is a discussion, cool, if it's a monologue with an audience, I've no interest in that.

 

[The Emissary]

One interesting critique I see about this episode is that the social commentary isn't subtle or too in your face.

Putting aside that previous Trek wasn't as subtle as our nostalgia would have us believe ... I think one thing to note is that Trek in the 22nd century (ENT), 23rd century (TOS), 24th Century (TNG/DS9/VOY) can afford to not be "in your face" with the social commentary because it is placed on aliens. Most, if not all, of our (humanity) current problems are in the rearview. So when a Ferengi is greedy, or a Klingon prone to mindless violence, or a Romulan being sneaky, or a Cardassian being a colonizer - we don't feel that we are being attacked. Rather, concepts like racism, greed, dishonesty, exploitation, slavery, etc. are examined. Thus, forcing us to look at our own world without any type of judgement on individuals. The judgements is on concepts.

However, that gets tricky with time travel episodes/films. Because the problems we place on aliens are still ongoing in 20th century and 21st century Earth at the hands of humans. So when they have to fight racism, exploitation, greed, etc. - it is us that are the villains. So it suddenly feels like it is "in your face" - even though the social commentary and the critique of these concepts have never changed in all of Trek history.

We don't need an alien force that detains "outsiders" to their empire that our heroic crew must escape. We have real life law enforcement that does that in our own century. So while you feel comfortable watching our heroes escaping the imperialist Dominion detention camps but not watching Rios having to escape ICE ... that is probably why. It hits too close to home. While I find social commentary better received by the average viewer by putting the vices on alien beings - it makes complete sense that in our century ... the antagonists/villains will be humankind.

I'm not sure why this bothers anyone to be honest.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Would you consider forcibly removing someone that decided to camp in your (or my) back yard without permission to be abuse ?

if your backyard was built for everyone to pursuit happiness and has a huge sign in front of it that invites the huddled masses yearning to breathe free....

 

[Mr Awe]

that I'm a purveyor of misinformation (what misinformation exactly?)

If that portion refers to my comment, you aren't paying attention. I was very specific about the concept you misunderstood and provided you with an encyclopedia definition of it. However, it was obvious that you missed the point entirely, which means you remain misinformed.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Thanks for proving my point about progressives.

You're against progressives...on a Star Trek board.

 

[Jayson1]

This has nothing to do with what we were talking about, Jayson. You just created a non-sequitur filled with assumption and foregone conclusions that I never said. If this is a discussion, cool, if it's a monologue with an audience, I've no interest in that.

Yes it is. Jut because ICE is involved doesn't mean all the rules of what makes for great drama goes out the window. I don't care what issue you are exploring. If your going to have bad guys they got to be relatable or understandable in some way. You got to find their humanity and it helps if you can argue their point of view as if you actually believed it yourself. You don't actually have to believe. I doubt the people who wrote The Sopranos agreed with the things Tony Soprano believed. You just got to understand why they actually think the way the do and why they do the things they do.

 

[gweeps]

It was just to show that whatever Q was trying to do to her didn't work.

And I suppose he was talking about himself, not her?

 

[Hythlodeus]

You're against progressives...on a Star Trek board.

yeah, that's basically bringing a spoon to a knife fight

 

[Sci]

Because I wonder if the Confederation is a re-instatement of that same totalitarian government that came about because the Bell Riots went a different way...?

I think it is entirely plausible that the Confederation of Earth is a direct descendant of the United States government, yes.

(Funny thing about that episode now...no way that people in the Sanctuary District would all have cell phones with cameras and ways to upload their stories to the net. I seem to recall that a plot point of that episode was that the internet was cut off in the Sanctuary Districts and nobody could tell their story? But of course when that episode was filmed, the internet and the web were still very new, and ubiquitous cell phones weren't a thing that anyone could predict. So in my headcannon the government was using very targeted cellular and wifi jammers, and had similar anti-drone technology.

I like that idea! It makes sense.

Next...why did Guinan not recognize Picard, since they met in the past and that meeting supposedly had such an impact on her that she never forgot Picard and that cemented their friendship and her loyalty to him.

I think that 2024!Guinan did not recognize Picard because her 1893-self never met him, since there was no Federation in 2368 for him to time travel back from.

Also, 10-Forward was named because it was "Deck 10, Forward Section"... not because it's the Earth street address of a bar she once owned.

Or maybe Guinan was like, "You know, if you put the bar on the forward section of Deck 10, I can keep using this name I like to use for my bars" when she was hired.

Also this Guinan's personality is nothing like 19th century Guinan...

It's been 130 years! People go through phases.

They could remember enough Trek lore to get the punk rock guy back...but not remember that Picard and Guinan had already met...!?!?!?

I'm sure they remembered and decided that the dramatic needs of this episode and of the general, non-Trek trivia-obsessed part of the audience were more important. In any event, like I said, there's no continuity problem if 2368-Picard never traveled back to 1893 because of the Confederation timeline.

So I guess Seven should have taken Tom Paris up in his offer of taking driving lessons on the holodeck. (I am *sure* that he made the offer!)

I second the people who say Seven is a maniac of a driver because Tom is the one who taught her.

I'm not sure why this bothers anyone to be honest.

Because a certain segment of Star Trek fans are reactionaries who were attracted by the show's traditional embrace of a space paramilitary organization and who are deeply invested in preserving society's existing hierarchies of class, race, gender identity, sexual orientation, and/or religion.

 

[Amaris]

Yes it is. Jut because ICE is involved doesn't mean all the rules of what makes for great drama goes out the window. I don't care what issue you are exploring. If your going to have bad guys they got to be relatable or understandable in some way. You got to find their humanity and it helps if you can argue their point of view as if you actually believed it yourself. You don't actually have to believe. I doubt the people who wrote The Sopranos agreed with the things Tony Soprano believed. You just got to understand why they actually think the way the do and why they do the things they do.

No, it isn't. You went on a diatribe about the state of TV the way it used to be, made claims of how I wanted it to be, and then I don't know where you got the idea that I'm against complex villains, especially since I remarked earlier on the subject of complex villains.

In this case, ICE is the bad guy because in real life ICE is the bad guy. They enforce unjust laws, and engage in exploitation and marginalization of immigrants, legal or not. You ever see an ICE raid show up? I have, right here in my own dinky little state, and the way immigrants are rounded up and treated, you'd think they were all card carrying terrorists.

What you want is to indulge in is the two sides debate, that just because someone does bad things doesn't mean they're bad, but you also have to take into account that if someone does enough bad things, or things that are so bad as to cause massive harm to entire populations, there is no redemption for them by doing a few good things, or for having a few good traits. That is what people have been telling you, and you've been ignoring.

Star Trek writers have chosen to focus on the evil that these men and women do, rather than on how nice they are to their girlfriends, or their pets. They want you to see, without it being softened because our media softens a lot of police and military action, that what these people are doing is wrong. That it is unequivocally wrong, regardless of their intentions.

You can say all day until you're blue in the face that they're not all bad, but it does not matter if you're the person they're coming after, because they will do their duty, their unjust, inequitable duty, and see you not as a human being, but as a task to be completed. Humans don't fare well when they're treated like numbers in a ledger.

yeah, that's basically bringing a spoon to a knife fight

 

[Sci]

Star Trek: Picard is depicting ICE as a violent, abusive white supremacist paramilitary organization that engages in arbitrary arrests and assaults against innocent people on the basis of race, because it is a violent, abusive white supremacist paramilitary organization that engages in arbitrary arrests and assaults against innocent people on the basis of race.