Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[fireproof78]

4/10. Yikes. Nose-dive.

Wow. The rest of the season has some work cut out of it.

 

[Amaris]

I'm the last person to support government approved violence against citizens or non-citizens. However, the situation itself ensures that some sort of force or possibly violence will invariably occur - ICE is charged with removing persons who do not have permission to be in the country. ICE agents would get nowhere by go around asking people nicely if they are legally in the country and if not then would they mind returning to their country of origin. Some kind of forcible removal is bound to be necessary. Does that mean that every encounter involves mass beatings or that it is an inherent (though perhaps unofficial) policy of ICE to beat everyone up? I don't know the answer to that - I'd like to see some evidence either way. If it's true then measures should be implemented to combat that tendency. That does not mean "ICE is bad" per se - especially if that opinion is based on your personal distaste for their mission.

Star Trek is a point of inspiration for us to strive to become better than we are - not a textbook on how to structure society. It is easy in a work of fiction to point out this or that failing from the point of view of a socially evolved human society looking at it's past. What isn't trivial is the real practical work of how we get there. Just saying something like "we should get rid of all borders" sounds nice but what about all the unintended consequences?

Who is saying that a person is "illegal for just existing"? This isn't the first time I've heard this sort of thing and it sounds like an emotionalized interpretation meant to stir outrage.

Who ever said anything about being upset about anything much less how this show makes ICE look? What I am saying is that ICE is an organization of people that is charged with a task that you personally may not like because you have your own particular ideas about immigration - does that make it "Bad"? To you, maybe, but that's not an objective truth.

Like I said, when you watch a Star Trek episode, and the social commentary they're portraying bothers you, examine why. Really ask yourself why the depiction bothers you, especially if other people tell you that the depiction is accurate.

 

[Vger23]

Wow. The rest of the season has some work cut out of it.

After such an amazing start, it’s almost impossible to describe how disappointed am right now.

 

[GNDN18]

Reactionary. Authoritarian. Those don't go well with art.

That would be a triumph of the will.

 

[starfleettanner]

I'm SERIOUSLY about to lose my mind hearing "What about Time's Arrow?!" when its been CLEARLY STATED THAT THIS TIMELINE IS A DIFFERENT TIMELINE FROM THE ORIGINAL! I don't know how much clearer that can be, and I'm TRYING to give the benefit of the doubt to my fellow Trekkies and your genius, but come ON! We've seen many an episodes dealing with alternate and even changed realities if not from this series, then from others. Data never went back in time in this Q-altered timeline, so there never WAS a meeting between Guinan and Picard in the 19th century. There won't BE a severed android head below SF in this 2024 OR 2400, there won't BE any of that because its obvious Q erased all that once he changed everything. Is this clear enough? Does this REALLY need to be further debated, or can we move on now? Because its really astonishing to me how little people seem to focus and listen in on the story these days to the point where I and others who HAVE been paying attention have to come and explain it. Please do better my fellow Trekkies....

 

[Amaris]

The Sanctuary District guards in DS9 weren't all dicks even though Dick Miller's character acted like one for most of those two episodes. His partner was just an overworked, underpaid young man who couldn't wait to get home to see his wife and kids. Based on Part I of "Past Tense" you'd come away thinking that the Sanctuary Districts were guarded by smug assholes with guns.

Let's wait until next week and see if any ICE agents act more honorably. If not then it was just like I said. Obstacles to be overcome like Chekov escaping from the U.S.S. Enterprise aircraft carrier officers and security in 1986. Not evil, but not heroes either.

The banality of bigotry is what makes it so dangerous. Most people who are only cogs in the wheel of the system often aren't aware they're a part of the oppression that is subjected upon others. DS9 actually touched on this with "Duet," in that even a lowly file keeper wasn't fully aware of the horrific acts committed by the system in which he worked until he had to face it.

James Baldwin once said that not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced. Unless we face the injustices taking place here, now, under our very noses, and by leaders we think are generally decent people, we can't even begin to repair the damage and, to steal from Malcolm X, "remove the knife from my back, and then heal the wound."

Star Trek is using its ability to reach people as a way to tell us what is happening, that it's closer to home than we think, and that we're deeper down that rabbit hole than we imagine.

 

[Awesome Possum]

But cartoon villains are boring. Also they don't cosplay as being good people. They no doubt see themselves as good people. Hell they likely even have good traits. Love their mom and dad and kids. You don't have to write ICE like heroes or noble but it helps if write them like a actual real human being because that makes a story better. In this case you got one guy who is kind of important because most of Rios story revolves around him interacting with Rios. All you do is have to do is give the guy some human touches but keep the apathy and anger towards Rios and you got a more interesting situation.
I have rarely seen the argument that lack of nuance makes for better art.

And Hitler was nice to his dog and his girlfriend.

 

[fireproof78]

Does this REALLY need to be further debated

Yes.

 

[cooleddie74]

That would be a triumph of the will.

Paint me like one of your Aryan girls.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Sometime reality is ugly and art has to expose it.

It's always good to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, otherwise you're just making propaganda.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ice agents should be wearing body cams?

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2021/12/21/ice-announces-use-body-worn-cameras-new-pilot-program

So they have internal affairs too?

https://www.ice.gov/about-ice/opr

So there are ice agents who's entire job, is just to find the worst assholes in Ice, and kick them out of ice.

If the same citizen (Dr Teresa) is being arrested by the same 4 officers over and over again, that has to be a case to get those four officers arrested for abuse of power.

 

[Photoman15]

This is how ICE agents act in real life. That you've managed to find a few who don't seem overtly villainous doesn't change the actions committed by that agency.

Sheep believe what the shepherd tells them. Do you think with video cameras EVERYWHERE that ICE agents beat people?

As for "separating" children from "parents", you are aware that a good percentage of the "parents" are NOT the kids parents. They buy them from the real parents so they can try to sneak in as families.

The only time a real agent would even be close to the Picard version, is if the illegal entrant is causing trouble (violent, inciting, et al). And that's just until they regain control.

But again, that's the facility that Obama built to hold illegal aliens sneaking in, so....

 

[Amaris]

Sheep believe what the shepherd tells them. Do you think with video cameras EVERYWHERE that ICE agents beat people?

As for "separating" children from "parents", you are aware that a good percentage of the "parents" are NOT the kids parents. They buy them from the real parents so they can try to sneak in as families.

The only time a real agent would even be close to the Picard version, is if the illegal entrant is causing trouble (violent, inciting, et al). And that's just until they regain control.

But again, that's the facility that Obama built to hold illegal aliens sneaking in, so....

I work with several organizations that have been directly involved in dealing with ICE and ICE agents specifically, and there *are* multiple instances of video evidence all over the internet if you care to search for them. Again, Star Trek Picard is showing you something that does not jibe with your accepted worldview, and it brings you discomfort. Good. Look into your beliefs and ask yourself why a show that has always pushed to be open about its agenda against racism, bigotry, hatred, and ignorance might suddenly be touching on something you find objectionable.

That is all I can tell you, honestly.

 

[Jayson1]

Sometime reality is ugly and art has to expose it.

But they aren't exposing reality because while I am sure people believe ICE can be abusive with their powers I am sure they look that agent and just see the cliche bully cop they have seen a million times in other shows and movies. Like for example does this cop worry about someone I don't know catching him being a dick with their phone? Do they not worry about catching political flack for their actions which they would certainly do in 2024. The only realistic part we saw was the lady at the desk being indifferent to Raffi and Seven when asking about Rios. I actually buy that exchange as being realistic.

 

[Jayson1]

And Hitler was nice to his dog and his girlfriend.

Which is something that would make sense to add to a movie about Hitler. Because it adds nuance and detail to the man. You got even more flexibility when dealing with a ICE agent not based on a real person.

 

[El Maestro]

Sheep believe what the shepherd tells them. Do you think with video cameras EVERYWHERE that ICE agents beat people?

As for "separating" children from "parents", you are aware that a good percentage of the "parents" are NOT the kids parents. They buy them from the real parents so they can try to sneak in as families.

The only time a real agent would even be close to the Picard version, is if the illegal entrant is causing trouble (violent, inciting, et al). And that's just until they regain control.

But again, that's the facility that Obama built to hold illegal aliens sneaking in, so....

Bro

 

[zenophite]

Like I said, when you watch a Star Trek episode, and the social commentary they're portraying bothers you, examine why. Really ask yourself why the depiction bothers you, especially if other people tell you that the depiction is accurate.

It doesn't seem to me like you're really listening to what I'm saying - possibly because we disagree. I never said the character and quality of the social commentary bothers me - I just think it is, by virtue of reflecting the opinions of the people that make it, too one-note. Just because I don't agree with someone or something doesn't mean it or they "bother" me. The fact that you keep saying it leads me to suspect that you might be bothered by people (me) that may think differently than you. If so then that's a shame. It's not what Star Trek represents...at least not to me.

 

[Amaris]

But they aren't exposing reality because while I am sure people believe ICE can be abusive with their powers I am sure they look that agent and just see the cliche bully cop they have seen a million times in other shows and movies. Like for example does this cop worry about someone I don't know catching him being a dick with their phone? Do they not worry about catching political flack for their actions which they would certainly do in 2024. The only realistic part we saw was the lady at the desk being indifferent to Raffi and Seven when asking about Rios. I actually buy that exchange as being realistic.

If you're being beaten by a man in uniform because you had the temerity to be the wrong color in the wrong location at the wrong time of day, how likely are you to care that they miss their girlfriend or love their son? One of the problems in modern media is all too often we see it from the position of authority rather than from the people being directly harmed by them.

It doesn't seem to me like you're not really listening to what I'm saying - possibly because we disagree. I never said the character and quality of the social commentary bothers me - I just think it is, by virtue of reflecting the opinions of the people that make it, too one-note. Just because I don't agree with someone or something doesn't mean it or they "bother" me. The fact that you keep saying it leads me to suspect that you might be bothered by people (me) that may think differently than you. If so then that's a shame. It's not what Star Trek represents...at least not to me.

Star Trek has no accommodation for fascism and oppression. There is no episode of Star Trek where the idea of "what if the fascists were right?" is seen as anything other than absurdity. Some views do not deserve their own platform. Fascism is one of those. The oppression of other human beings is, and always should be seen as, a detestable thing to be stopped.

 

[zenophite]

And Hitler was nice to his dog and his girlfriend.

Isn't this comparison a bit too much?

 

[Vger23]

This is going really well.