Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[zenophite]

I'm sure that no matter what I said you'd convince yourself that your misguided beliefs were correct and justified. You aren't interested in a debate, you're interested in shouting down anyone who disagrees with you while spreading misinformation and ignoring any evidence that contradicts your unfounded beliefs.

I'd like it pointed out where I 'shouted' anyone down or disparaged anyone or, for that matter, any point of view in this whole conversation - that is, other than simply disagreeing with elements of the progressive opinion on a specific topic as expressed by yourself and others. By contrast, I've been told either directly or indirectly that I'm a fascist, that I have no business being a Star Trek fan, that I'm a purveyor of misinformation (what misinformation exactly?), that I have a misguided and unfounded belief system and that I'm beneath dignity and whatever else for holding these opinions and wanting to discuss them in a respectful way.
Is it any wonder why I've come to the opinion that modern progressives love diversity except that of thought and opinion that diverges from their own?

 

[Awesome Possum]

And what point was that?

I'm progressive on most issues. Tell me why I'm disingenuous even though I've avoided talking to you about this until now.

That we refuse to tolerate fascism?

 

[cooleddie74]

Then call me Colonel Robert Hogan.

Minus the death by homemade erotica stuff. I'm demented but have my limits.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'd like it pointed out where I 'shouted' anyone down or disparaged anyone or, for that matter, any point of view in this whole conversation - that is, other than simply disagreeing with elements the progressive opinion on a specific topic as expressed by yourself and others. By contrast, I've been told either directly or indirectly that I'm a fascist, that I have no business being a Star Trek fan, that I'm a purveyor of misinformation (what misinformation exactly?), that I have a misguided and unfounded belief system and that I'm beneath dignity and whatever else for holding these opinions and wanting to discuss them in a respectful way.
Is it any wonder why I've come to the opinion that modern progressives love diversity except that of thought and opinion that diverges from their own?

 

[cooleddie74]

A lot of ICE agents do act like assholes. They're in an agency that shouldn't even exist but does thanks to post-9/11 fear. Are they all bad people? No, not everyone in any U.S. government police agency is a bad person nor can they statistically be. But they're obstacles to overcome in this series. Which means these ones HAVE to act like dicks who want to toss undocumented brown people into holding pens.

This isn't a values judgment about an organization so much as it is how law enforcement has to be portrayed in these episodes to further the story. Rios gets separated and captured and has to be freed for our heroes to fix the timeline. End of story. It wouldn't matter if the officers raiding the clinic brought birthday cakes for anyone celebrating theirs that month. They're the obstacle.

 

[gweeps]

Yes, I was quite confused at this scene as well. I had no idea what the significance of the woman was until just now.

I still don't get why she laughed after Q snapped his fingers and apparently nothing happens. Something funny in the novel perhaps?

 

[zenophite]

That's two Hitler references from you already. Why not go for a third? Seriously though....and I'm the one that's supposedly shouting people down?

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

I still don't get why she laughed after Q snapped his fingers and apparently nothing happens. Something funny in the novel perhaps?

‪‪I saw the scene as her laughing at something from the book.

 

[Airmandan]

I still don't get why she laughed after Q snapped his fingers and apparently nothing happens. Something funny in the novel perhaps?

I think the laugh was just about the book. The impression I got was Q was trying to put doubts about the upcoming mission in her mind. Apparently it didn't work, so now he's gonna ho do something else to change history, which will probably backfire.

 

[Dukhat]

I still don't get why she laughed after Q snapped his fingers and apparently nothing happens. Something funny in the novel perhaps?

It was just to show that whatever Q was trying to do to her didn't work.

 

[Tuskin38]

I still don't get why she laughed after Q snapped his fingers and apparently nothing happens. Something funny in the novel perhaps?

Yes.

That's two Hitler references from you already. Why not go for a third? Seriously though....and I'm the one that's supposedly shouting people down?

And you completely miss the message of the image. Or didn't bother to acknowledge it.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think if a foreigner has no prior criminal history, they should be given a path to citizenship. If they do have a criminal history, then I think it should be case-by-case because I don't think "one size fits all". And I don't think families should be split up.

As far as where fans stand ideologically, those of you who are right-wing should know by now that Star Trek is left-leaning. So if you're fuming about "Oh my God! Look how they portray ICE!!!!" that's what I call "mock outrage" because you had to have figured that's what would happen. What exactly were any of you expecting? Don't kid yourselves.

When they time-travel into the past, a crewmember being caught by the authorities is nothing new. Kirk was caught on an Airforce Base and thought to be a spy. Chekov was caught on a Naval Vessel (the Enterprise) and thought to be a Soviet Agent. Now it's Rios' turn.

Which transitions into my being able to say I love when Seven and Raffi run from the cops and beam out when the cops think they have them. Reminds me of when Security chased Kirk, Gillian, McCoy, and Chekov in TVH. "Freeze!"

The TOS Movies liked having a maverick crew. The crew in PIC, made up of Ex-Starfleet and Non-Starfleet personnel (until some of them became active Starfleet again), is made up of mavericks as well.

 

[Amaris]

I think if a foreigner has no prior criminal history, they should be given a path to citizenship. If they do have a criminal history, then I think it should be case-by-case because I don't think "one size fits all". And I don't think families should be split up.

As far as where fans stand ideologically, those of you who are right-wing should know by now that Star Trek is left-leaning. So if you're fuming about "Oh my God! Look how they portray ICE!!!!" that's what I call "mock outrage" because you had to have figured that's what would happen. What exactly were any of you expecting? Don't kid yourselves.

When they time-travel into the past, a crewmember being caught by the authorities is nothing new. Kirk was caught on an Airforce Base and thought to be a spy. Chekov was caught on a Naval Vessel (the Enterprise) and to be a Soviet Agent. Now it's Rios' turn.

Which transitions into my being able to say I love when Seven and Raffi run from the cops and beam out when the cops think they have them. Reminds me of when Security chased Kirk, Gillian, McCoy, and Chekov in TVH. "Freeze!"

The TOS Movies liked having a maverick crew. The crew in PIC, made up of Ex-Starfleet an Non-Starfleet personnel (until some of them became active Starfleet again), is made up of mavericks as well.

The whole "One little mistake" scene still cracks me up even after all these years.

 

[Jayson1]

I think if a foreigner has no prior criminal history, they should be given a path to citizenship. If they do have a criminal history, then I think it should be case-by-case because I don't think "one size fits all". And I don't think families should be split up.

As far as where fans stand ideologically, those of you who are right-wing should know by now that Star Trek is left-leaning. So if you're fuming about "Oh my God! Look how they portray ICE!!!!" that's what I call "mock outrage" because you had to have figured that's what would happen. What exactly were any of you expecting? Don't kid yourselves.

When they time-travel into the past, a crewmember being caught by the authorities is nothing new. Kirk was caught on an Airforce Base and thought to be a spy. Chekov was caught on a Naval Vessel (the Enterprise) and to be a Soviet Agent. Now it's Rios' turn.

Which transitions into my being able to say I love when Seven and Raffi run from the cops and beam out when the cops think they have them. Reminds me of when Security chased Kirk, Gillian, McCoy, and Chekov in TVH. "Freeze!"

The TOS Movies liked having a maverick crew. The crew in PIC, made up of Ex-Starfleet an Non-Starfleet personnel (until some of them became active Starfleet again), is made up of mavericks as well.

Almost every show is left leaning. That's no excuse for bad writing. If some shows can explore issues in depth then they all can if they have the writers capable of doing it. Also Star Trek when done right actually can have more depth than it gets credit for. Sure it has lots of escapism but classic Trek was well above Lost in Space. TNG and DS9 had more to say than Hercules and Baywatch Nights that one year they became a Sci- Fi show. I think people aren't giving past Trek enough credit in terms of quality of writing. It might not have been ER or NYPD Blue but it was still well written and good quality back in the day.

 

[Amaris]

I'd like it pointed out where I 'shouted' anyone down or disparaged anyone or, for that matter, any point of view in this whole conversation - that is, other than simply disagreeing with elements of the progressive opinion on a specific topic as expressed by yourself and others. By contrast, I've been told either directly or indirectly that I'm a fascist, that I have no business being a Star Trek fan, that I'm a purveyor of misinformation (what misinformation exactly?), that I have a misguided and unfounded belief system and that I'm beneath dignity and whatever else for holding these opinions and wanting to discuss them in a respectful way.
Is it any wonder why I've come to the opinion that modern progressives love diversity except that of thought and opinion that diverges from their own?

"Pineapple is delicious on pizza" is an opinion.

"Immigrants are criminals, drug dealers, and need to be arrested and deported without due process" isn't an opinion, it's an invitation to greater bigotry.

Sometimes there aren't two sides. The counter-argument to equity is not an opinion, it is bigotry masked as an opinion, and polite bigotry is still bigotry, and deserves no respect.

 

[cooleddie74]

Some ideas are fucking stupid. You can say them, but don't expect sensible people to respect them.

 

[Lord Garth]

Almost every show is left leaning. That's no excuse for bad writing. If some shows can explore issues in depth then they all can if they have the writers capable of doing it. Also Star Trek when done right actually can have more depth than it gets credit for. Sure it has lots of escapism but classic Trek was well above Lost in Space. TNG and DS9 had more to say than Hercules and Baywatch Nights that one year they became a Sci- Fi show. I think people aren't giving past Trek enough credit in terms of quality of writing. It might not have been ER or NYPD Blue but it was still well written and good quality back in the day.

Are you defending what I think you're defending? I'm not talking about writing. I'm talking being fair to people who have done nothing wrong except to want to live a better life.

 

[Jayson1]

"Pineapple is delicious on pizza" is an opinion.

"Immigrants are criminals, drug dealers, and need to be arrested and deported without due process" isn't an opinion, it's an invitation to greater bigotry.

Sometimes there aren't two sides. The counter-argument to equity is not an opinion, it is bigotry masked as an opinion, and polite bigotry is still bigotry, and deserves no respect.

Your right. Their isn't two sides. Things are complex. Their is usually hundreds of sides and angles to every situation. No two people think exactly alike. Their is multiple agendas coming into conflict with each other on a daily basis and that doesn't even touch on the subconscious fears and desires and insecurities that factor into creating human motive coming into conflict with real world pragmatic situations that can hinder or help someone or even hurt them in ways that even people making the rules can't predict or comprehend.

 

[Airmandan]

I think if a foreigner has no prior criminal history, they should be given a path to citizenship. If they do have a criminal history, then I think it should be case-by-case because I don't think "one size fits all". And I don't think families should be split up.

As far as where fans stand ideologically, those of you who are right-wing should know by now that Star Trek is left-leaning. So if you're fuming about "Oh my God! Look how they portray ICE!!!!" that's what I call "mock outrage" because you had to have figured that's what would happen. What exactly were any of you expecting? Don't kid yourselves.

When they time-travel into the past, a crewmember being caught by the authorities is nothing new. Kirk was caught on an Airforce Base and thought to be a spy. Chekov was caught on a Naval Vessel (the Enterprise) and to be a Soviet Agent. Now it's Rios' turn.

Which transitions into my being able to say I love when Seven and Raffi run from the cops and beam out when the cops think they have them. Reminds me of when Security chased Kirk, Gillian, McCoy, and Chekov in TVH. "Freeze!"

The TOS Movies liked having a maverick crew. The crew in PIC, made up of Ex-Starfleet an Non-Starfleet personnel (until some of them became active Starfleet again), is made up of mavericks as well.

You're right, there are many pathways to gain citizenship, but it requires that you follow the rules of the land and allow the process to take time. It's not a great system, but it does work. Kind of. Illegally coming into this country and getting met along the border generally means a court date at an undetermined time, then you are released back into the country until they can determine your asylum status. If you break the laws, yes you will be deported.

I do understand why they chose to portray the ICE folks like they did, they needed a bad guy. I do think the stereotypes that they used though are frustrating and overblown. They are not running around willy nilly grabbing every Hispanic looking person they see on the street. If you think that, then you've obviously never lived in Arizona or New Mexico.

 

[Lord Garth]

You're right, there are many pathways to gain citizenship, but it requires that you follow the rules of the land and allow the process to take time. It's not a great system, but it does work. Kind of. Illegally coming into this country and getting met along the border generally means a court date at an undetermined time, then you are released back into the country until they can determine your asylum status. If you break the laws, yes you will be deported.

I do understand why they chose to portray the ICE folks like they did, they needed a bad guy. I do think the stereotypes that they used though are frustrating and overblown. They are not running around willy nilly grabbing every Hispanic looking person they see on the street. If you think that, then you've obviously never lived in Arizona or New Mexico.

You're right in that I don't live in Arizona or New Mexico. I live 30 minutes south of Boston.