Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Jayson1]

Why? I don't really see people complaining about the message or the values of the story, merely the craft or the execution, which seems fair game.

Though personally I'm liking it all, with one issue -- we've now had two LOL moments of comic slapstick violence for Rios in this story. I find it such a bizarre choice to include multiple Homer-Simpson-style pain & injury moments in a story that is about so much real pain & violence.



Isn't the black & white aliens episode mostly famous today for a clunky, overdone script?

I think maybe they should have stuck with one social issue instead of trying to cram 3 of them in at the same time. Especially since it's hard to do even one of them justice when so much of the episodes is going to be delegated to the pew pew pew and action beats , mystery box twists and then you got the character stuff with Picard.

You know I think one of the reasons maybe past Trek could handle this stuff better is because TNG wouldn't put so much focus and time on the pew pew pew and the action beats. Hell TNG could barely muster a half decent action scene if it wanted most of the time. That allowed them to focus on exploring the characters and the human condition better I would say.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm so glad the punker didn't sell out.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Also, I can't be the only person who thinks it's kind of screwed up of the writers to write a story where the character played by a white-Chilean actor gets in trouble with immigration. In other words, anyone can be an immigrant to the US, it doesn't have to be someone from a Latin American country or a character played by an actor from a Latin-American country. (My sister in law is an immigrant from Poland.) The fact that the writers chose the character played by a Latin actor, for this part of the story, says more about how the writers view immigrants/Latin-americans more than anything it says about ICE officers.

The writers need to learn subtlety and allegory. People much smarter than me have proved that hitting people in the face with heavy handed social messaging turns people off and makes people double-down on opposing views.

I really wanted to like this season.

I took it that they want to point out that anti-immigration is often more about immigration from certain people (of certain regions, religions, skin colors), so quite hypocritical. It could be argued that Rios is "white,"but while that is technically true, race definitions are not.

PS: I'm personally quite impassionate about this storyline. I don't think it's bad, but I also feel this is more a pulp fiction kinda season, so it won't be a "good" (deep, complex) storyline by definition.

 

[eschaton]

I think maybe they should have stuck with one social issue instead of trying to cram 3 of them in at the same time. Especially since it's hard to do even one of them justice when so much of the episodes is going to be delegated to the pew pew pew and action beats , mystery box twists and then you got the character stuff with Picard.

You know I think one of the reasons maybe past Trek could handle this stuff better is because TNG wouldn't put some much focus and time on the pew pew pew and the action beats. Hell TNG could barely muster a half decent action scene if it wanted most of the time. That allowed them to focus on exploring the characters and the human condition better I would say.

There wasn't any pew-pew in this episode though! Closest was Raffi using the phaser to melt the window of the cop car.

I guess there was the car chase, though oddly until the last scene the cops didn't seem to be following Seven and Raffi, with most of the "drama" around what a terrible driver Seven was.

Oh, and Rios got tazed. Is that pew-pew?

 

[Sakonna]

You know I think one of the reasons maybe past Trek could handle this stuff better is because TNG wouldn't put so much focus and time on the pew pew pew and the action beats. Hell TNG could barely muster a half decent action scene if it wanted most of the time.

One of my favorite descriptions of Trek ever was from an article in Slate by Matthew Yglesias, where he observed (paraphrased) Trek was about people who could easily solve most every problem they encounter with force, if they so chose. But instead they go to the conference room to brainstorm a non-violent solution.

 

[Jayson1]

The car chase counts. What's the point of it other than have some fun action and banter. Which I don't mind. It was the best part of the episode but you also have so much time to get everything in.The tazer scene was just cartoon baddie stuff. Everyone has seen that scene a million times. Our hero talks some smack and the mean cop or brute smacks them or hits them in some way to show us how mean he is.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I caught myself thinking, Please split Seven and Raffi up next episode and pair them with other actors! Then I remembered: Covid bubble pairings... Oh well.

 

[eschaton]

The car chase counts. What's the point of it other than have some fun action and banter. Which I don't mind. It was the best part of the episode but you also have so much time to get everything in.The tazer scene was just cartoon baddie stuff. Everyone has seen that scene a million times. Our hero talks some smack and the mean cop or brute smacks them or hits them in some way to show us how mean he is.

I agree it was an action scene. I don't think it was executed well at all as car chases go, but again, Seven isn't skilled enough to do stunt driving, so I can forgive that.

But I absolutely don't think this was an "action packed" episode, as that section took up maybe 5 minutes of the total run time.

 

[El Maestro]

Also, I can't be the only person who thinks it's kind of screwed up of the writers to write a story where the character played by a white-Chilean actor gets in trouble with immigration. In other words, anyone can be an immigrant to the US, it doesn't have to be someone from a Latin American country or a character played by an actor from a Latin-American country. (My sister in law is an immigrant from Poland.) The fact that the writers chose the character played by a Latin actor, for this part of the story, says more about how the writers view immigrants/Latin-americans more than anything it says about ICE officers.

It is not implausible to think that the majority of ICE-related detentions in Southern California would involve Latinos/people from Central and South America. Your objection perhaps says more about your priors.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Unless it's turning into a salamander when you hit warp 10.

Tom had a rare genetic defect.

Only his closest relations, like his mother or sister, should have also turned into a Salamander.

 

[jackoverfull]

I think maybe they should have stuck with one social issue instead of trying to cram 3 of them in at the same time. Especially since it's hard to do even one of them justice when so much of the episodes is going to be delegated to the pew pew pew

only one pew in this episode, the other was more like a bzzzt.

 

[jackoverfull]

Tom had a rare genetic defect.

Only his closest relations, like his mother or sister, should have also turned into a Salamander.

so janeway was his mother and sister?

 

[Sakonna]

The following is my reaction to the Guinan reveal.

A black woman pops up from behind the bar.

Picard: "Guinan!"

Me: "Racist!"

My exact reaction as well! AND it took me multiple scenes to realize that THIS WAS ACTUALLY SUPPOSED TO BE GUINAN. I thought it was a new character that was fucking with him!

I don't necessarily have a problem with de-aging for small show moments, but when the part is meatier such has having Guinan in a substantial portion of this episode and potentially this season, it makes sense to me to give the role to an actor who doesn't have to act through a digital mask.

Doesn't make sense they recast Guinan for 2024 but not 2401.

Either get Whoopi for both times or neither.

I agree that it should have been Whoopi both times -- or Whoopi and a new character (I'm not willing to give up that Whoopi scene for anything). My interpretation of her line in the premiere was that she could both age and de-age herself. I agree digitally de-aging her for these scenes would have been a mistake, but they already introduced the explanation that makes that unnecessary.

The worst was Guinan... she didn't even feel like the character at all. I thought for a minute we might have been dealing with ones of Guinan's kids.

I love the idea that this could have been one of Guinan's kids. They teased us with that a lot back in Berman Trek! They kept saying one of her kids would pop up on DS9, and I was disappointed it never happened. We could have finally gotten that payoff a few decades later!

 

[Jayson1]

I agree it was an action scene. I don't think it was executed well at all as car chases go, but again, Seven isn't skilled enough to do stunt driving, so I can forgive that.

But I absolutely don't think this was an "action packed" episode, as that section took up maybe 5 minutes of the total run time.

This wasn't really killed by action so much as being overcrowed. You got Pcard dealing with out of character Guinan, Jurati dealing with the Borg Queen, Rios dealing with the ICE cop, Seven and Raffi doing the banter and action stuff. You also crammed some Picard flashbacks in and a Q tag at the end. Remember when old Trek might have a A and B story. This has a A,B,C and D storyline.

That's to much story and not enough time and they even dragged the Watcher stuff out one episode to long. We should have meet The Watcher and learned what they want in this episode. Then next episode should focus on Q more and what's up with his powers while our heroes take what they learned from the Watcher this episode and set in motion their plan to save the future.

 

[eschaton]

It is not implausible to think that the majority of ICE-related detentions in Southern California would involve Latinos/people from Central and South America. Your objection perhaps says more about your priors.

Further, since Rios speaks fluent English (and frankly looks pretty white) ICE probably wouldn't have bothered him...except he happened to be taken to a clinic which was known to provide services to the undocumented. They probably would have taken in anyone they found there without papers. Though from a story perspective doing it with Rios makes the most sense of any of the characters, as Raffi/Seven/Jurati all have "passing privileges" as American.

 

[Sakonna]

I really just want to go on about the Guinan choices in this for awhile, which I think reflects some of the worst creative decision making in this show to date.

There was nothing of the Guinan we know in that performance. Nothing. And how could there be? Whoopi is iconic for a reason. If that was a different character, I would have thought the actress was great. But I feel like she was put in an impossible position, trying to play this character right after we see Whoopi picking it up for the first time in decades. There's no comparing to that.

This is like if we had Brent Spiner playing Data in the "Remembrance" dreams, and then a new 20-something playing Data for the final goodbye to Picard in "Et In Arcadia Ego."

 

[El Maestro]

I'm a little let down by how glibly they sort of conflate immigration, the environment, and issues of capitalism in this episode, starting with the updated lyrics of the Bus Punk's song. I feel like all of the threads should be teased out a bit into their own plotlines (I realize standalone episodes are impossible). But nothing they say is unprecedented in Trek...not even Guinan's comments about her skin color versus Picard (DS9 certainly went there in the later seasons).

I think this criticism is valid to a certain extent but I would offer that the way it is being presented is that the issues the characters encounter are all intertwined into the general badness of the early 21st century in the real world. The environmental problems, xenophobia, rising authoritarianism inequality/economic issues, etc. are all symptoms of the late-capitalist hellscape we live in at the moment. So I don't think it's the writers trying to focus on too many issues at once; it's more that they're pulling a Hulk-in-Avengers "this all seems.....horrible" kind of observation.

It's funny, when Star Trek was first created in the 1960s it was also a very turbulent and uncertain time. But TOS had many more episodes in each season to address and respond to its time a little more deliberately.

 

[eschaton]

I do want to say I really did like how the reactions of Rios, Raffi, and Seven to 2024 are not all that different from their reactions to the Confederation. They are seeing what is (almost) our present reality as dystopian - something that is completely understandable for anyone who comes from the future of the Federation, as seeing how everything could really be different casts the things we pass by every day (like homeless people encamped on the streets) in an entirely different, more sinister light.

 

[eschaton]

I really just want to go on about the Guinan choices in this for awhile, which I think reflects some of the worst creative decision making in this show to date.

There was nothing of the Guinan we know in that performance. Nothing. And how could there be? Whoopi is iconic for a reason. If that was a different character, I would have thought the actress was great. But I feel like she was put in an impossible position, trying to play this character right after we see Whoopi picking it up for the first time in decades. There's no comparing to that.

This is like if we had Brent Spiner playing Data in the "Remembrance" dreams, and then a new 20-something playing Data for the final goodbye to Picard in "Et In Arcadia Ego."

In general I feel like maybe this comes from the same place as the choice to have Laris available for Picard to bone? Or Raffi and Elnor suddenly having this strong relationship that developed off camera? Matalas seems like he has a very particular story he wants to tell this season, and he's not overly concerned with how well it fits in even with the themes of last season, let alone past characterization going back decades.

 

[cooleddie74]

I think they made the right choice in recasting Guinan for her younger self. That being said her memory must be awful if she doesn't remember Picard from 1893 or she's had so much happen in the ensuing decades that a bald French man from the future no longer rings a bell.