Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Tuskin38]

Did the events of Time’s Arrow change when Nero went back in time to 2233?

Both the KT and the Confederacy timeline have a shared past to the Prime timeline. In the former, everything’s the same up until 2233. In the latter, everything’s the same until 2024, or so it should be based on how time travel was depicted previously. So people questioning the events of Time’s Arrow have a legitimate argument and should not be made to feel
like they’re not as smart as you think you are. Matalas is apparently just changing the rules.

The Kelvin Timeline is a completely different universe, while the Confederation timeline is an alerted prime universe.
Like remember Yesterday's Enterprise and Past Tense. The events in the past changed the present, override the normal timeline.

The Kelvin Timeline didn't do that, if it did, we wouldn't have this show.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes but he choose to be human. The others gave him options and he choose that one because he knew Picard would protect him from all the aliens who would want payback for his fucking around with them.

Well, until we know what has transpired perhaps it is a similar circumstance?

Also, it's joke in part, tongue in cheek. I have no idea what happened to Q.

 

[Dukhat]

The Kelvin Timeline is a completely different universe, while the Confederation timeline is an alerted prime timeline.

Huh? I fail to see the difference. Both universes are altered from the prime universe.

 

[jackoverfull]

How was the timeline different when Nero showed up?

different stradate system, different starship design, different uniforms…

 

[cooleddie74]

I just chalk it up to Guinan's memory being affected by the changed timeline, as if there's now some block on her remembering certain events such as meeting Picard for the first time in 1893 San Francisco and helping him and his crewmates from the Enterprise-D. That could be deliberate to allow Guinan to help him but without the foreknowledge of who Picard even was.

 

[Tuskin38]

Huh? I fail to see the difference. Both universes are altered from the prime universe.

Like remember Yesterday's Enterprise and Past Tense. The events in the past changed the present, override the normal timeline. It wasn't a different universe.

The Confederation timeline is only an altered timeline, they didn't move into an entirely different universe.

If the Kelvin Timeline was the same Universe then the Picard series wouldn't exist.

 

[Xerxes82]

Because it never happened. The future was altered remember?

I keep seeing this repeated, but it doesn't work. Not even remotely.

Why?

Because, IN THIS VERY SAME EPISODE, you have the bus punk who clearly still encountered Kirk and Spock in San Francisco. If the change to the timeline prevented Time's Arrow, then it MUST have also prevented The Voyage Home by the exact same logic.

So, while perhaps clever fanwank on it's face, it is invalidated by the very episode itself.

 

[Dukhat]

different stradate system, different starship design, different uniforms…

We never saw starships, uniforms or the stardate usage in the year 2233 of the Prime timeline. So how can you say it’s different when we never saw that time period before?

 

[Sakonna]

It's not just us. Apparently even new Guinan actress Ito Aghayere (also a Trekkie) asked why Guinan doesn't recognize Picard and showrunners told her how they're interpreting time travel this season (i.e. Time's Arrow was erased): https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/st...inan-ito-aghayere-whoopi-goldberg-1235213292/

This is such a great interview, thanks for posting.

I particularly love this:

As a kid, every time I saw, “And guest starring Whoopi Goldberg,” I was like, “Yes! She’s back! It’s going to be a good one!”

I would always have the exact same reaction!

I'm curious to rewatch "Watcher" now having read this article.

 

[Tuskin38]

Because, IN THIS VERY SAME EPISODE, you have the bus punk who clearly still encountered Kirk and Spock in San Francisco.

Nothing in the episode indicates he remembers Spock and Kirk.

 

[cooleddie74]

Even "The Cage(TOS)" didn't use stardates. I just figure at some point before DSC but well after ENT that the new Federation adopted a stardate system to try to unify timekeeping across all member species and it just happened to use Earth years as the basis since it was considered the most important founder world.

 

[Dukhat]

Nothing in the episode indicates he remembers Spock and Kirk.

He sure as hell does. He even tugs at his neck in memory from his previous neck pinch from
Spock.

 

[jackoverfull]

We never saw starships, uniforms or the stardate usage in the year 2233 of the Prime timeline. So how can you say it’s different when we never saw that time period before?

you might want to discuss this here: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/exp...y-ripples-effect-theory.305713/#post-13536090

 

[Jayson1]

definitely: just look at how the timeline ALREADY is different when Nero shows up. I’m fact I opened a discussion on this topic up here some time ago.

There is no issue with Guinan not remembering Picard, the issue is with Picard not even trying to mention their previous meeting.

I agree. TIme travel logic is often confusing and contradicts itself so explaining why Guinan doesn't recognize seems important because in the end who knows what logic they are going to use this time with time travel but we all saw TNG episodes so you know that question is going to come to mind with the fans when they see it and then see it not really acknowledged or explained. If you have to ask the director or writer later on or go read another book or comic or other episode to figure out what happened in the one your currently watching then that is just sloppy writing.

 

[Precious Tritium]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Yistaan]

Nothing in the episode indicates he remembers Spock and Kirk.

Then it's a joke that immediately undermines itself. There's no rule against that, but I think it's fair game for fans to criticize that.

Furthermore, older Trek did indeed explain itself. Just from Memory Alpha--

In 1893, Guinan encountered Data, from the 24th century, who claimed they were friends from the Enterprise. Guinan had no knowledge of this and when she expressed her absence of awareness about the situation, it allowed Data to quickly realize that he was dealing with the Guinan of this era rather than from his own time.

Trek covered this sort of expository dialogue before without slowing down the story.

 

[Tuskin38]

He sure as hell does. He even tugs at his neck in memory from his previous neck pinch from
Spock.

Maybe his collar with just too tight.

 

[cooleddie74]

It's like Scotty thinking Kirk was still alive in "Relics(TNG)" when in-universe he'd clearly witnessed Kirk's apparent death aboard the Enterprise-B. There's an in-universe explanation even if the episode or movie doesn't explicitly state it.

 

[Sakonna]

It's becoming weirder to me they didn't have a line addressing "Time's Arrow", given how many different methods of time travel the Trekverse has. We really do have many different sets of rules!

Which I love, I don't want it to be standardized. But it's a bit foolish to assert "DUH, this is the one way time travel works in the Trekverse!"

 

[Jayson1]

I just chalk it up to Guinan's memory being affected by the changed timeline, as if there's now some block on her remembering certain events such as meeting Picard for the first time in 1893 San Francisco and helping him and his crewmates from the Enterprise-D. That could be deliberate to allow Guinan to help him but without the foreknowledge of who Picard even was.

In this timeline Guinan grew to be so bitter and angry, she even stopped wearing big hats!