Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x02 - "Penance"

[DS9forever]

Nice to see some meatier DS9 references. Do I detect Marc Bernardin's influence at work?

 

[Guy Gardener]

For those who have the "Audio Description" track - there are background lines missing in the opening that support Q's statement that the planet was being kept alive on 'life support'. (Some reviewers misinterpreted the opening as people attacking the Earth and it was a shield to protect from outward threats - it may still be, but the primary purpose is for pollution control.)

Strangely, the subs are not on the Amazon Prime release, but are on the Paramount+ release - however the audio isn't on the primary track. The missing audio is on the "Audio Description" track.

Anyway, here it is transcribed if you don't have access. I'm not sure why the woman's announcement didn't make the final track, it seems like it was an omission.

(Sorry, still new here... but this formatting seemed to be a way to put it?)
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[Narrator: In space, the view tilts down from the stars revealing Earth - a
glowing hexagonal grid covers the atmosphere. The grid lights up pushing
clouds of brown pollution aside.]

[siren wailing] [phasers blasting]

Woman's announcement: "Atmospheric sweepers coming online."

[siren continues] [blasting continues]

[Narrator: The view descends through a clear spot in the smog.]
Woman's announcement: "Particle pollution down to 23% in upper troposphere."

[siren continues wailing]

[Narrator: At the chateau, Picard and Q enter the courtyard...
Picard squints at the sky.]
Picard: "What is this?"

I imagine that the Vulcans cleaned up the planet with a dozen ships transporting Irradiated soil. At first I thought into space, then I figured that the mere act of transportation would clean the soil.

These strange visitors from the sky did not have to ask permission.

There was no one to ask.

Except maybe Zephram.

They asked this one drunk guy in the woods, if he wanted a bunch of aliens he didn't know, to clean a trillion tons of irradiated soil from across the earth, and deal to some other obvious problems.

1. This would fuck up the planet.
2. People would die, as it happened, or days to weeks later as people are surprised by the complete change of topography.
3. This would screw of property rights, and probably mineral rights, which doesn't matter if all the billionaires and lawyers are dead.

The Vulcans could only fix the earth because hundreds of millions of people were displaced, and half the land was more unlivable on than usual, and no central government had a voice to say, "hold on, are there strings attached to this benevolence?"

The reason the Earth is still fucked is because World War III never happened, or someone won world war III with out 7 thousand atomic detonations.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Vulcans could only fix the earth because hundreds of millions of people were displaced, and half the land was more unlivable on than usual, and no central government had a voice to say, "hold on, are there strings attached to this benevolence?"

It would explain why the Vulcans in ENT were holding back Earth's development...payment for services rendered.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It would explain why the Vulcans in ENT were holding back Earth's development...payment for services rendered.

Locked inside our own solar system for a century.

That's a conservatorship.

 

[PiotrB]

You three seem to be missing the fact that Time Travel means there's no difference.

Meaning to ban Time Travel in the 31st/32nd centuries they would have to ban time travel across all of time.

Because otherwise it's not a ban, it's sticking your head in the sand and pretending something doesn't exist like an idiot.

Yes, space and time are mind numbingly vast. All those species out there and their shenanigans the Feds don't know and have no control over doing whatever they want. It's a silly plot device like the Prime Directive. It's there for dramatic tension but in reality any effort to enforce it would be a joke. And it keeps the franchise from turning into Bill and Ted's Next Generation.

Lex retro non agit. Pre-treaty time travel has already taken place and its effects are known. That past will not change. Travel after the signing of the treaty is prohibited.
Furthermore, the ban applies only to signatories.

Simplifying from the Discovery point of view, everything that happens in the second season of PIC already has a known outcome because it has already happened.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Lex retro non agit. Pre-treaty time travel has already taken place and its effects are known. That past will not change. Travel after the signing of the treaty is prohibited.
Furthermore, the ban applies only to signatories.

Simplifying from the Discovery point of view, everything that happens in the second season of PIC already has a known outcome because it has already happened.

There's a lot of universe to cover between the big bang and the final heat death. The idea is just idiotic.

 

[Tuskin38]

"You are part of me".

His present is her history.

They are the same person.

No.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We saw Daniels looking at time and pontificating with 3d holography charts.

DANIELS: When time travel was first developed, it wasn't long before people realised that laws had to be made. All the species who had the technology agreed that it would only be used for research.
ARCHER: But it wasn't. That's what the Temporal Cold War is all about.
DANIELS: Look at this. This is a group of anthropologists from 2769 observing the construction of the Great Pyramid at Giza. They're doing it using the proper procedures set forth in the Temporal Accord. But there are factions that ignore those procedures.
ARCHER: Why are you telling me all this?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Do you think the Borg really cared, Danny Boy? Or the Q? What room held all those time traveling representatives from the earliest civilizations after the big bang to the really later ones getting close to the end of it all at the heat death? And that just in one galaxy.

There is a hopeless parochialism to the Federation, to Star Trek story telling as a whole, really.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Locked inside our own solar system for a century.

That's a conservatorship.

The ECS was out and about, plus there were colonies outside of the Sol System.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yep, for 88 years between First Contact and the launch of the first Warp 5 starship engine we were still an interstellar species, just limited to a handful of star systems that our Warp 1.2 to Warp 4 engines could reach. The ECS cargo freighters could reach about Warp 1.2 or just a little over that so they were confined to the closest inhabited star systems and trade routes to Earth.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Before I make my first comment, I understand this is written for entertainment and played by the shows actors. But how are there always, in every mirror or alternate universe, the same people, physically, which would mean their parents and ancestors all happened to line up perfectly across time even with all of these changes. If one decision can butterfly effect the entire planet, how does this work?

It is ridiculous. Not only would their ancestors have met the same spouses, made the same decisions about having kids etc., but they'd also have the exact same sperm meet the exact same egg.

I think one reason - besides the obvious "We want our regulars be the important folks" is some form of Great Man Theory.

I knew the name drops of Dukat, Sarek, Martok etc were for our benefit, but they were woven in the story and didn't seem forced.

But they, too, are in the sme line of thinking: that of course, in any universe, these would have been super important and successful figures.

"Someone got over their commitment issues..." long second "I'm a rebel." Amazing.

That was funny.

In a weird way, I wanted to see Kate Mulgrew as the magistrate. Seeing Janeway would have been another mindfuck for Seven and it would've been great to see Mulgrew chew the scenery like she did in "Living Witness."

Interesting idea, particularly since we still don't know why Seven has lost contact with her former shipmates. (I assume. They could always retcon that to "they all group chat twice a week" if needed.) I'd have expected her to at least stay in touch with the EMH and Naomi.

The real mindfuck, imho, would still have been Bjayzl.

Speaking of the magistrate, I didn't understand how his marriage to Seven worked. It seemed loveless, with no passion.

I don't think we are meant to believe this was a marriage of love.

 

[Llywela]

It is ridiculous. Not only would their ancestors have met the same spouses, made the same decisions about having kids etc., but they'd also have the exact same sperm meet the exact same egg.
I think one reason - besides the obvious "We want our regulars be the important folks" is some form of Great Man Theory.
But they, too, are in the sme line of thinking: that of course, in any universe, these would have been super important and successful figures.

You're overthinking it. Sometimes you just have to be generous and buy into a contrivance or a deus ex machina or a few loopholes as the price of admission for a fun viewing experience. Those are just the gears to get the story where it needs to go and it doesn't pay to get yourself all caught up in those gears. Sometimes you just have to meet a story halfway. Roll with it. You will enjoy the viewing experience a whole lot more!

I mean, in this particular case, it doesn't take much rationalisation to say that Q is an omnipotent being who made it so that all the people he wanted Picard to have around him would be in place to meet up with him again in this new world.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I quite enjoyed this episode, so no, thinking didn't prevent that in any way.

But I agree, unlike with other AUs/ TLs, "Q made it so" works.

 

[Tuskin38]

All Q did was make one change in 2024, so it's not like he just created an entirely new reality.

We're still in the Prime Universe, the timeline has just been altered.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

how are there always, in every mirror or alternate universe, the same people, physically, which would mean their parents and ancestors all happened to line up perfectly across time even with all of these changes. If one decision can butterfly effect the entire planet, how does this work?

That's the beauty of an infinite multiverse. It provides a ready-made excuse to do that very thing.

When literally anything is possible, an alternate universe/timeline where the same people DO show up, with the same ancestors and all that, is simultaneously no more and no less likely than any other.

 

[Andyliini]

I watched this on friday, but life came in the way of Internet...

Aaaanyway, another brilliant episode of Picard. I like how the alternate universe totalitarian Earth is similar, but also very different than the Mirror Universe Terran Empire. The actord must have had some fun doing something different with their characters, I especially liked Alison Pill's performance as Jurati was trying to cover the fumbles made just before. The cliffhanger is a bit meaningless though, as we all know the heroes will survive, don't know about Elnor and also Soji has had just a short appearance in the first episode and nothing here, so well just have to wait and see.

9/10, very strong beginning for season 2.

 

[Push The Button]

How dare Q slap Picard across the face?! I hate Q again.

Yeah, I didn’t like that either. You don’t hit women, children, or the elderly, and certainly not our beloved Jean Luc Picard. I hope Guinan stabs Q in the eyeball this time.

I predict that Agnes is somehow related to Sylvia Tilly.

 

[XCV330]

The ECS was out and about, plus there were colonies outside of the Sol System.

And yet somehow the ECS did not know about, even by hearsay, the Klingon Empire practically on their cosmic doorstep. I maintain that Vulcan controlled ECS's routes and possibly even what ports they were allowed to. Earth was practically a client state during those years. The Warp Five project meant that the Vulcans could no longer prevent Earth from free contact with the outside galaxy and that level of control and grooming would cease. No wonder they held them back.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Know what would have been better in my opinion? Instead of LA in 2224, go back to Terra Prime in 2154.. And use that as a turning point.. Get more of that era.. Owell

I’m sure that era will get its day, eventually. Even if its just a Wikipedia-like page on a computer screen in DIS/PIC/SNW in the background due to someone viewing the Federation historical database.

And for all we know, the altered 2024 allowed Terra Prime to succeed in 2155.

So in this alternate timeline Okinawa now looks like Hong Kong OR Hong Kong was called Okinawa.

Or Okinawa was rebuilt to look like Hong Kong?

I think they'll find a way to make a hybrid between Our Earth and Star Trek Earth.

The only part I don't like about that is the Santuary Districts and High Unemployment Rate happen under Biden in a Hybrid Version. Ugh. I really don't like that, but it's not Star Trek's fault.

As for the 2024 material, I'm sure we'll be in the thick of some sort of conflict with Russia in the real 2024 (I hope not, but the way it looks right now... ). As long as PIC Season 2 doesn't focus on the Russian angle, hopefully it won't become dated almost immediately. That's the one Achille's Heel.

According to Sisko in “Past Tense”, Sanctuary Districts were nationwide by 2020, which occur under Trump. It just persists alongside high employment for 4 years under Biden. Or maybe Harris by that point. We don’t know that part, nor does it really matter.

And besides, “Past Tense” never says one political party is to blame for that situation or absolves either, major or minor.

Also, maybe I noticed something what everobody did just now, because I haven´t watched the whole season 1 yet, but is Jurati this show´s Tilly?

That is the intention, yes.

I had the revelation that Jurati is basically being written as Tilly, only I prefer Tilly

To each his/her own. I prefer Jurati.

Curious that Soji barely seems to feature this season.

Might be related to a theory posted earlier in the thread that only their consciousnesses were taken to this dystopian reality. And Soji doesn’t have the consciousness of organics.

Before I make my first comment, I understand this is written for entertainment and played by the shows actors. But how are there always, in every mirror or alternate universe, the same people, physically, which would mean their parents and ancestors all happened to line up perfectly across time even with all of these changes. If one decision can butterfly effect the entire planet, how does this work?

Jake Sisko doesn’t exist in the MU. Outside of Worf, O’Brien and Tuvok, we’ve never seen the MU counterparts of TNG and VOY crews. Its safe to say that the ancestors of the characters that we see in the mirror universe successfully evaded any/all attempts on their life. I’m sure that there are MU characters that have never existed in the Prime Universe, although that’s never been concretely established.

There are also hundreds of thousands of alternate realities and we only see a tiny fraction, so there are likely alternate realities - based off of the prime and mirror universes - where the entire crews are completely unrecognizable. We just tend to see the fraction that has the same cast, because of the budget constraints of the real world.

What Q is doing is still Prime Universe, and has implications for these changes, such as Tasha Yar still being alive by 2400.

The real mindfuck, imho, would still have been Bjayzl.

Indeed. That who I was expecting to be revealed as the magistrate.