Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

[Turtletrekker]

I used to be all about consistency to detail and continuity, but as I've gotten older I've come to the realization that that stuff really isn't is as important as I used to think it was. Important to be sure, there does need to be some sense of consistency between stories, but ultimately the priority has to be the story at hand. But when you have a shared fictional universe that's gone through the hands of many distinct creative voices and interpretations, absolute consistency is a pipe dream. And I think that for the most part, Star Trek continuity holds up pretty well.

In my opinion, the worst so-called canon violation was giving Romulans cloaks a century before Balance of Terror, but that's hardly the only irreconcilable statement made in the original series. Space Seed establishes that humanity had a devastating global war in 1996 and was traveling to other planets in 2018. I must have missed that headline. The Squire of Gothos infers that the show takes place in the 27th century. Sometimes you just got to squint and think yourself, "well I guess that's apocryphal".

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Yeah, definitely. Some things can't be helped, other things are going to inevitably be overlooked. I wasn't keen on them contradicting Balance of Terror though, because that's one of the really good episodes! All they had to do was not have any cloaking devices and everything would've been fine.

On the other hand they can contradict The Alternative Factor and Turnabout Intruder all they want. I won't even notice they've done it.

 

[cooleddie74]

"The Alternative Factor(TOS)" can only make more logical sense IF something's added to contradict it. I love Robert Brown as Lazarus but damn, that script is a bigger mess than a junkie's bloodstream.

 

[CorporalClegg]

An early example of in-universe continuity and canon in storytelling in a franchise was references to James Bond's tragic marriage. Though two of the first three films after his wife's murder didn't reference the marriage in any way, shape or form the producers began tossing in references to reinforce that the Connery and then the Moore, Dalton and Brosnan 007s were the exact same man with the same life experiences, just on a floating timeline that asked you to ignore the changes in appearance and then painfully obvious drop in age from Moore to Dalton.

So there was in-universe canon and continuity, just adhered to as loosely as possible because the actors kept changing every few years or so and they had to keep the character, well, essentially, ageless after 1985 so he wouldn't end up a seventy-odd-year-old senior citizen by the final Brosnan entry in the series.

But even there, the best you can say about any of those examples is they're just there for flavor. I mean, the Brosnan one was so subtle that most people completely missed it and just chalked it up as a great tête-à-tête between him and Marceau. The number of us for whom it was a piercing (See what I did there?) dagger, was disproportionately small. (Heck, when my friend and I went to see DAD, the place was packed. We were the only two in the whole theater who laughed when he picked up the copy of West Indies. The people in front of us even turned around and glared. Of course, they nay just have been mad because the film had gone to shit by then, but I digress.)

It's been a while, but I don't think Tracy was even mentioned by named in either SWLM or L2K. In both, it's simply stated that he's been married once. For all intents and purposes, both Felix and Mrs. Ringo may as well have been talking about Madeline. Or even that long weekend Bond and Tanner spent in Vegas together.

The only real direct reference was the grave in YEO, but even had the gravestone read "Sadie, Sandwich Queen of Baltimore" (Thus giving greater importance to Not Ernst's last words.), it wouldn't have had much effect on the greater film for anyone besides a very small group who probably spent their evenings wearing out their dot-matrixes in an angry letter-writing campaign.

On the flip side, though, you have Craig's whole tenure that only became a convoluted mess of tangled contrivance by the mid-point of SPECTRE.

I'm fascinated by the idea of a series with no continuity now. Main characters could get killed off and just appear again next episode like nothing happened. One episode the crew works for Starfleet, next they're mercenaries. One week the ship is taking alien ambassadors to a distant galaxy, the next FTL hasn't been invented and they've never encountered aliens. The ship and sets look entirely different every episode.

I don't know if this was supposed to be a joke or a piss-poor attempt at bad faith, but:

Only that of their own creation.

*And even then only that which is germane to the plot.

Yes. If you're watching a murder mystery and the evidence proves Jack was the killer in-part because forensics concludes the killer was left-handed and so is Jack, then, yes, it's important to show Jack south-pawing his way through the movie. However, if it's the fourth movie in a series and even if every single time Jacked picked a pen or a coffee cup in the first three with his right hand, it doesn't fucking matter.

 

[cooleddie74]

The less said about Spectre the better. How a five-film series was allowed to become that needlessly convoluted by the fourth chapter is a sign they were just running out of good ideas for what to do with James Bond. I'm glad those movies have no timeline connection to the first twenty.

I love or like a few of them but damn, do the two that suck really deflate the whole.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Hey, I'm the one who's still deeply disappointed the DSC and SNW Enterprise don't look a lot closer to the TOS, DS9 and ENT interpretations of the Constitution-class starship. Add to that the rejection of much of the visual dictionary from this era we knew from 1964-2005. That said I'm just bringing up how some franchises use a looser, floating continuity for their own internal reasons.

That's funny, because I'm less concerned about the visual continuity. I believe the sets and costumes they've created are incredibly faithful to TOS in spirit, even if they don't match 100%. But for me, it's the story/history continuity that's important.

 

[cooleddie74]

Which, oddly enough, they're sort of getting right. For all the problems I have with DSC the premiere episode referenced the Federation-Klingon battle at Donatu V for the first time onscreen since "The Trouble With Tribbles(TOS)" and other references in the live action series either don't contradict what was already written or do so very subtly and can be interpreted as being loose with the exact facts and spitballing what happened.

I think making the Mirror Universe Terrans sensitive to light was dumber than a bag of hammers and giving Klingons cloaks 10 years before Kirk and his crew were shocked to see them use any in TOS was a misstep, but other Trek series play loose and fast with canon and in-universe continuity even if it was a script mistake later acknowledged by the producers. A 24th century Starfleet Admiral saying the Eugenics Wars and Khan were just "200 years" ago? Yeah, Kurtzman Trek isn't the only iteration of the franchise to piss in the continuity pool, however accidentally.

 

[cooleddie74]

I'm also no fan of Section 31 being so blatant and out in the open. That's a retcon of gargantuan clumsiness. But hey, I don't write these shows so I can't change that the agency is now more visible than a Red Letter Media video.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Which, oddly enough, they're sort of getting right. For all the problems I have with DSC the premiere episode referenced the Federation-Klingon battle at Donatu V for the first time onscreen since "The Trouble With Tribbles(TOS)" and other references in the live action series either don't contradict what was already written or do so very subtly and can be interpreted as being loose with the exact facts and spitballing what happened.

I think making the Mirror Universe Terrans sensitive to light was dumber than a bag of hammers and giving Klingons cloaks 10 years before Kirk and his crew were shocked to see them use any in TOS was a misstep, but other Trek series play loose and fast with canon and in-universe continuity even if it was a script mistake later acknowledged by the producers. A 24th century Starfleet Admiral saying the Eugenics Wars and Khan were just "200 years" ago? Yeah, Kurtzman Trek isn't the only iteration of the franchise to piss in the continuity pool, however accidentally.

As I said, Discovery S1 broke the mould by ignoring a large swath of canon (what some on this board are arguing for), which they tried very hard to retcon (re-con?) in S2. As for the 24th century Admiral -- you can always argue they can't do math. But the spirit is there in general (i.e. the Admiral mentioned those things).

 

[Turtletrekker]

I'm also no fan of Section 31 being so blatant and out in the open. That's a retcon of gargantuan clumsiness. But hey, I don't write these shows so I can't change that the agency is now more visible than a Red Letter Media video.

Agreed. I actually really liked the concept of Section 31 when it was originally introduced on Deep Space Nine, but they've become like the Borg. The only reason I'm looking forward to the Section 31 series is that, frankly, I would follow Michelle Yeoh anywhere. Hopefully, they can apply some continuity spackle to the concept.

 

[Turtletrekker]

As I said, Discovery S1 broke the mould by ignoring a large swath of canon (what some on this board are arguing for), which they tried very hard to retcon (re-con?) in S2. As for the 24th century Admiral -- you can always argue they can't do math. But the spirit is there in general (i.e. the Admiral mentioned those things).

Other than the questionable example of the Klingon appearance, remind me exactly what continuity was ignored by Discovery season 1?

 

[cooleddie74]

I'll always say that tossing some TOS Augment Klingons and TNG-style Klingons into DSC Season 1 would have solved a lot of visual continuity issues that first year. I'll never defend the extent of the changes to the species' makeup without any in-universe, spoken rationalization. But all things considered it could have been a lot, lot worse.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

I'll always say that tossing some TOS Augment Klingons and TNG-style Klingons into DSC Season 1 would have solved a lot of visual continuity issues that first year. I'll never defend the extent of the changes to the species' makeup without any in-universe, spoken rationalization. But all things considered it could have been a lot, lot worse.

If Klingons appear in SNW that’s close to what ‪‪I would prefer, a mix of all the Klingons we’ve seen onscreen before, Augment, TMP, TNG, Into Darkness and DSC Klingons standing alongside one another.

It could be a really great image.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I would follow Michelle Yeoh anywhere.

Keep in mind, she can smash in your face in.

 

[cooleddie74]

If Klingons appear in SNW that’s close to what ‪‪I would prefer, a mix of all the Klingons we’ve seen onscreen before, Augment, TMP, TNG, Into Darkness and DSC Klingons standing alongside one another.

It could be a really great image.

Yeah, give us TOS, TNG, DSC and even Kelvin Timeline makeup. In my head canon the Kelvin Timeline Klingon look is the result of the Augment Virus being corrected in that timeline so why not use it if it looks good?

 

[fireproof78]

An alien race with diversity?

 

[Turtletrekker]

I'll always say that tossing some TOS Augment Klingons and TNG-style Klingons into DSC Season 1 would have solved a lot of visual continuity issues that first year. I'll never defend the extent of the changes to the species' makeup without any in-universe, spoken rationalization. But all things considered it could have been a lot, lot worse.

I actually do have a rationalization that works for me. In continuity, the last time we saw the Klingons was at the end of theAugment arc. At the end of that story, The Klingon doctor played by John Schuck speculated that reconstructive surgery was going to become a big thing due to the effect of the vaccine.

So, what we see by the time of The Vulcan Hello is a Klingon culture that's gone overboard on these reconstructive surgeries in order not to be associated in the minds of others with weakling humans. Essentially, its body art used to cover up the "scars" of the augment virus vaccine.

 

[cooleddie74]

An alien race with diversity?

If only the producers of Trek did that more often with aliens.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

An alien race with diversity?

It’s just so crazy, it could work! But would it betray Gene’s Vision™?

 

[cooleddie74]

I actually do have a rationalization that works for me. In continuity, the last time we saw the Klingons was at the end of theAugment arc. At the end of that story, The Klingon doctor played by John Schuck speculated that reconstructive surgery was going to become a big thing due to the effect of the vaccine.

So, what we see by the time of The Vulcan Hello is a Klingon culture that's gone overboard on these reconstructive surgeries in order not to be associated in the minds of others with weakling humans. Essentially, its body art used to cover up the "scars" of the augment virus vaccine.

Either body art or genetic engineering that's gone WAY too far and reactivated Klingon traits from their prehistory. A combination of both, possibly. They were so determined to correct the Augment Virus they went too far in the other direction and we have elongated skulls with heat sensory pits.