Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

[TimeIsAPredator]

Beverly Crusher’s parents died when she was very young. She was raised by her grandmother on Arvada III

And presumably by her candle ghost step daddy

 

[The Wormhole]

Yeah, I love Cumberbatch as an actor and many of his characters, but that was probably one of the worst case of miscast whitewashing in recent memory. True, Montalban wasn’t of South Asian/Siekh descent either, but at least he looked the freakin’ part!

What I always found worse is the rumor that they did look at other, more ethnically appropriate actors but decided on Cumberbatch solely on the fact that they thought with him being white, it would make the "twist" that he was Khan all the more surprising. A twist everyone figured out in advance anyway.

But then, that movie was built way too much around that twist.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yeah, I remember reading about that - Benicio Del Toro was strongly considered for the role (which would have been AWESOME, IMO), but was unable due to a scheduling conflict. "Twists" are only good when they make sense, and when the news leaked that "John Harrison" was actually "Khan" (despite Abrams' many objections to the contrary), it was almost universally reviled. Then they came up with some convoluted planet-sized lampshade in a vain attempt to try to explain the "twist", which didn't really come across that clearly in the final cut. Just way too many bad decisions there.

 

[fireproof78]

They wanted del Toro but the delays in scheduling meant he became unavailable. Cumberbatch was a last minute hire.

 

[137th Gebirg]

It shows.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yep. I love Benedict but him as Khan was just. Well. Yeah, didn't really work.

When Benedict Cumberbatch isn't a prime asset of your story then you've done something wrong.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Exactly.

 

[fireproof78]

The Into Darkness script writing process is an illustration of the writers trying to be too clever with themselves. Some wanted Khan, while others wanted an original villain. So they did two drafts of a script with and without Khan. And then went back and reworked Khan in to it.

By that time del Toro was no longer available so casting had to get creative. All of it way overcomplicated the story and pushed the film back too long.

 

[cooleddie74]

Benedict Cumberbatch as British Augment John Harrison - one of Khan's European followers - would have been great and all by itself as a concept. You already have the Khan references in the film and could even have shown a CGI Ricardo Montalban the way he looked in "Space Seed(TOS)" inside a cryogenic container. Win-win.

 

[Dukhat]

Benedict Cumberbatch as British Augment John Harrison - one of Khan's European followers - would have been great and all by itself as a concept. You already have the Khan references in the film and could even have shown a CGI Ricardo Montalban the way he looked in "Space Seed(TOS)" inside a cryogenic container. Win-win.

Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.

 

[cooleddie74]

I know. Sad, really. At least Cumberbatch's Khan got to chew the scenery and had a couple of good scenes so that's some consolation.

 

[eschaton]

The Into Darkness script writing process is an illustration of the writers trying to be too clever with themselves. Some wanted Khan, while others wanted an original villain. So they did two drafts of a script with and without Khan. And then went back and reworked Khan in to it.

By that time del Toro was no longer available so casting had to get creative. All of it way overcomplicated the story and pushed the film back too long.

Generally speaking the more rewrites a movie script goes through (and the more individuals involved) the worse it will be.

I mean, when you have a story, you want to have a single, coherent vision of the plot, characters, etc. Books are almost always written solo, with a single editor providing feedback, for a reason. But movie studios are so risk averse they can't help mucking with the process through rewrites...which actually never results in anything all that good.

 

[fireproof78]

Generally speaking the more rewrites a movie script goes through (and the more individuals involved) the worse it will be.

I mean, when you have a story, you want to have a single, coherent vision of the plot, characters, etc. Books are almost always written solo, with a single editor providing feedback, for a reason. But movie studios are so risk averse they can't help mucking with the process through rewrites...which actually never results in anything all that good.

Eh, Meyer did a decent job with TWOK, but generally speaking that seems to be the case.

But, of course studios are risk adverse. They are putting up millions of dollars with no assurance they will make it back.

I know. Sad, really. At least Cumberbatch's Khan got to chew the scenery and had a couple of good scenes so that's some consolation.

Oh, I'm sure someone will deep fake and edit it to make such a version.

 

[Yistaan]

I believe Beverly's parents were said to have died when she was a kid in "Sub Rosa". I could be wrong about Neelix.

My original point (which was admittedly unclear) was that the Star Trek orphans thing is overblown, and it's more about tragic deaths, as others have said. The minutiae of who counts as an orphan is not that interesting to me because rigid boxes in general are silly, and wasn't really my point.

Main characters with formative tragedies in their past (before their first appearance):
James Kirk - survivor of Tarsus IV, survivor of Farragut disaster
Leonard McCoy - had father euthanized but then cure developed shortly after
Nyota Uhura - *NEW* parents and brother died while she was young
Will Riker - mother died in his youth; abandoned by his father; survivor of Pegasus incident
Deanna Troi - father died in her childhood; had really obnoxious mother
Beverly Crusher - parents died in her youth; husband died young
Tasha Yar - orphaned; survived rape gangs
Worf - orphaned
Wesley Crusher - dad died in his childhood
Ben Sisko - wife killed by the Borg (technically this was depicted in his first appearance, but in a prologue sequence)
Kira Nerys - mother disappeared, likely as sex slave to Dukat; father killed by Cardassians; many, many friends died during her time in Resistance; she killed people herself as part of that effort
Odo - made misstep that cost innocent Bajorans their lives
Julian Bashir - genetically reengineered (without his consent)
Quark - father dead
Ezri Tigan - personality/mind rearranged when took unexpected symbiont transplanted
Jake Sisko - mother killed by the Borg
Kathryn Janeway - father died in her youth
Neelix - family killed in war crime in his youth
Seven - assimilated by the Borg as a child
Jonathan Archer - father died "unfulfilled"
T'Pol - father died; murdered a guy (don't really remember the plot; too lazy to look up)
Michael Burnham - parents killed as a child; in first appearance had a mother figure killed in part due to her own mistake
Saru - parents culled as part of species erroneous conditioning by slaver race
Ash Tyler - murdered and "reborn" as part of a Klingon
Adira - orphan? boyfriend died and they took his symbiont into themself, causing amnesia
Becket Mariner - friend eaten by her boyfriend
Dal R'El - orphan? enslaved
Jankom Pog - enslaved
Zero - force removed from people; enslaved
Rok-Tahk - enslaved

Ah yes, this is the infamous Starfleet orphanage I heard about over at Bernd Schneider's Ex Astris Scientia website Ex Astris Scientia - Star Trek Clichés (ex-astris-scientia.org)

 

[Noname Given]

I believe Beverly's parents were said to have died when she was a kid in "Sub Rosa". I could be wrong about Neelix.

My original point (which was admittedly unclear) was that the Star Trek orphans thing is overblown, and it's more about tragic deaths, as others have said. The minutiae of who counts as an orphan is not that interesting to me because rigid boxes in general are silly, and wasn't really my point.

Main characters with formative tragedies in their past (before their first appearance):
James Kirk - survivor of Tarsus IV, survivor of Farragut disaster
Leonard McCoy - had father euthanized but then cure developed shortly after
Nyota Uhura - *NEW* parents and brother died while she was young
Will Riker - mother died in his youth; abandoned by his father; survivor of Pegasus incident
Deanna Troi - father died in her childhood; had really obnoxious mother
Beverly Crusher - parents died in her youth; husband died young
Tasha Yar - orphaned; survived rape gangs
Worf - orphaned
Wesley Crusher - dad died in his childhood
Ben Sisko - wife killed by the Borg (technically this was depicted in his first appearance, but in a prologue sequence)
Kira Nerys - mother disappeared, likely as sex slave to Dukat; father killed by Cardassians; many, many friends died during her time in Resistance; she killed people herself as part of that effort
Odo - made misstep that cost innocent Bajorans their lives
Julian Bashir - genetically reengineered (without his consent)
Quark - father dead
Ezri Tigan - personality/mind rearranged when took unexpected symbiont transplanted
Jake Sisko - mother killed by the Borg
Kathryn Janeway - father died in her youth
Neelix - family killed in war crime in his youth
Seven - assimilated by the Borg as a child
Jonathan Archer - father died "unfulfilled"
T'Pol - father died; murdered a guy (don't really remember the plot; too lazy to look up)
Michael Burnham - parents killed as a child; in first appearance had a mother figure killed in part due to her own mistake
Saru - parents culled as part of species erroneous conditioning by slaver race
Ash Tyler - murdered and "reborn" as part of a Klingon
Adira - orphan? boyfriend died and they took his symbiont into themself, causing amnesia
Becket Mariner - friend eaten by her boyfriend
Dal R'El - orphan? enslaved
Jankom Pog - enslaved
Zero - force removed from people; enslaved
Rok-Tahk - enslaved

You forgot Spock:
(From TOS - S2 "Journey To Babel"):
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/44.htm

AMANDA: I'm glad he has such a friend. It hasn't been easy on Spock. Neither human nor Vulcan. At home nowhere except Starfleet...
...
AMANDA (to Spock): When you were five years old and came home stiff-lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you saying that you weren't really Vulcan. I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part of you was crying and I cried, too...

Oh and in addition to what you already posted about her, Beverly Crusher also lived through a disasterous plague on a colony where most died; and her grandmother taught her some of the medicine she knows:
(From TNG S1 - "Arsenal Of Freedom")
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/121.htm

PICARD: Talk to me, stay awake. Tell me something. Tell me about those roots. How did you know their medicinal values?

CRUSHER: My grandmother.

PICARD: Your grandmother was a doctor?

CRUSHER: No.

PICARD: Oh. She was a botanist, then?

CRUSHER: No. She helped to colonise Arveda Three.

PICARD: Arveda Three? That's such a tragedy. Did she survive?

CRUSHER: Yes. Once the medical supplies had run out, she had to use what was at hand. So she learned all about roots and herbs, and then taught it to me.

PICARD: You were part of that colony. I didn't know that. But then there must be a lot of things about you that I don't know...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Drama, it's not for the faint of heart.

 

[shapeshifter]

They wanted del Toro but the delays in scheduling meant he became unavailable.

Citation, please? My memory of the event was he just suddenly dropped out at the last minute. <googles> I found these saying it was negotiation breakdown.

“BENICIO DEL TORO, WHO ENTERED INTO TALKS LAST MONTH TO PLAY THE SEQUEL’S NEW VILLAIN. INSIDERS TELL VULTURE THAT THE DEAL ACTUALLY WENT ASUNDER LAST WEDNESDAY AFTER PARTIES COULDN’T COME TO TERMS OVER MONETARY ISSUES.”
https://www.destroythebrain.com/movies/movie-news/benicio-del-toro-says-no-khan-do-for-star-trek-2

And

"Vulture says Del Toro backed out of the film last Wednesday, unable to come to an agreement on how much he’d be paid for the project."
https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/benicio-del-toro-star-trek-drops.html

 

[fireproof78]

Citation, please? My memory of the event was he just suddenly dropped out at the last minute. <googles> I found these saying it was negotiation breakdown.

I might be misremembering. I'll have to track down the book I read it from.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Strange. I thought it was a scheduling conflict. Guess it was a Mandela Effect moment.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

AMANDA (to Spock): When you were five years old and came home stiff-lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you saying that you weren't really Vulcan. I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part of you was crying and I cried, too...

I completely forgot about this dialogue (it's been ages since I watched J to B), but I now realize this is totally the motivation behind the scene in ST'09.