Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x07 - "…But to Connect"

[fireproof78]

Wouldn't it be nice for zora to be demonstrated to be worthy of this trust rather than assuming she'll kill the crew?

 

[Fateor]

Isn't the spore drive capable of cross universe travel like they did at the end of season 1 with the mirror? ?? Why does douche scientist need the dma power source of the shrooms can get him home?

Look behind you a three headed monkey!

 

[Kraig]

So if Zora's going to become a member of Starfleet, is she gonna need to get a crash course of Academy training? Is that how they're gonna bring Tilly back later this season?

Discovery's midseason finale not bad - Cronenberg fluffs a line early on, referring to Admiral Vance (Oded Fehr) as "she" - though I was more interested in the Zhora story than in the inevitable putting Michael and Book at odds- I wanna know where the 10Cs come from. And nice to hear somebody finally suggest that the DMA might not have been launched with hostile intent. "It's wonderful to be seen" indeed, it cheers the old Bi heart...

The episode I watched, Kovich talking to Burnham right after the opening credits of the episode, referred to Admiral Vance as "When Admiral Vance asked me to see to this matter, he was quite clear" and referred to Zora as "she" and Star Fleet regulations "prohibiting fully sentient integrated units."

I sometimes get glitches in my audio. I find I have to pause and replay portions of the episode. I don't have the best internet connection out in the "boonies."

I'm guessing the prohibition is probably directly connected to the M-5 experiment in TOS. Probably no attempt at M-6.

 

[nic3636]

This is true to an extent. And I actually thought about this in considering the idea Zora was in the chain of command. But for the most part, a captain has been (presumed; obviously there are holes) cleared to be of sound mind enough to have such authority. And, other than on VGR, I think all self-destruct sequences required multiple authorizations, not just some random captain declaring herself arbiter of death for a large group of people. Any other actions would have failsafes, as well as a crew working to monitor the ship to make sure it's functioning normally.

The key difference is checks (effective or not). Other than trust, there is no check against Zora. If Zora decided to reject her role as a member of the crew and decide it was her will that should rule, they'd be at her mercy. Zora decides to kill the crew? She just purges the atmosphere (one of the things I thought was crazy last season was having a fire suppression system that just vents the Jeffries tubes into space) and opens the airlocks, turns off all consoles so no one can override her through those, puts up forcefields between sections, and send out DOTs to attack the people who physically try to damage the ship's components before they pass out from air loss. She can spew anesthetic or poisonous gas, screw with the heat, turn off gravity and light, and probably any number of things to slow down any die-hards. Unlike with Burnham or another crewmember, she is not really affected by the conditions she imparts, so it wouldn't be a potential suicide mission if she doesn't want it to be. And if she did, do all that and warp into a star.

This is not to say I thought they were wrong to have trusted Zora. I think trust was the way to go. I just think comparing her power vs. any other crewperson is not a good argument.

Adding to the risk is that Zora is a completely new form (they can't even classify her as AI) and new = unknown = risk. You correctly point out that Zora wields disproportionally more power than any member of the crew. What if she does something wrong by accident? Could she fall asleep and inadvertently turn off all the life support? Who knows.

 

[ToddCam]

Wouldn't it be nice for zora to be demonstrated to be worthy of this trust rather than assuming she'll kill the crew?

If you're responding to me, I specifically said I agreed with trusting her is the way to go. I was arguing against an argument, not against the decision.

 

[fireproof78]

If you're responding to me, I specifically said I agreed with trusting her is the way to go. I was arguing against an argument, not against the decision.

Mine was a general comment or musing, not directed at any particular person.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

The key difference is checks (effective or not). Other than trust, there is no check against Zora. If Zora decided to reject her role as a member of the crew and decide it was her will that should rule, they'd be at her mercy. Zora decides to kill the crew?

This is not to say I thought they were wrong to have trusted Zora. I think trust was the way to go. I just think comparing her power vs. any other crewperson is not a good argument.

‪‪I believe I understand the thinking, but I honestly don’t find it’s a sound argument in the world of Star Trek. Not all species have the same capabilities, but those with greater strengths and fewer weaknesses aren’t automatically looked at with a greater degree of paranoia or suspicion, and preemptively penalized just because they’re capable of violence and/or betrayal on a different scale. Their acceptance of the rules of StarFleet are taken in good faith, as is required for any kind of trust.

I believe that using this logic would result in treating all species differently, because of Vulcan’s superior intelligence, and physical and psychic abilties, or because of Betazoid’s telepathic abilties, or because of Synth’s great number of advantages over many species, none would be able to serve in command roles, because if they too rejected their positions then their abilties would make them able to similarly declare death in larger numbers than say, an average human.

It presumes a baseline of abilties, and assumes that someone with greater abilties therefore greater capacity for damage or destruction must be automatically treated as a greater risk, which is by definition a form of prejudgment that doesn’t allow for true equality or trust.

And though ‪‪I don’t agree, ‪‪I appreciate your position, and well thought out articulation.

 

[valkyrie013]

Sets up some interesting stories with Zora. What if she falls in love with a crew member, and say that crew member is on an away team, and stuff goes tits up, and they have to leave him/her behind.. Will zora leave? Will she have a mental breakdown afterwards?
Honestly be best where she was able to dis associate herself with the ship somehow. Or press a button and her conscience was contained and the computer went back to dumb AI

 

[thribs]

Zora will fall in love with Voyager. You heard it here first.

 

[ToddCam]

‪‪I believe I understand the thinking, but I honestly don’t find it’s a sound argument in the world of Star Trek. Not all species have the same capabilities, but those with greater strengths and fewer weaknesses aren’t automatically looked at with a greater degree of paranoia or suspicion, and preemptively penalized just because they’re capable of violence and/or betrayal on a different scale. Their acceptance of the rules of StarFleet are taken in good faith, as is required for any kind of trust.

I believe that using this logic would result in treating all species differently, because of Vulcan’s superior intelligence, and physical and psychic abilties, or because of Betazoid’s telepathic abilties, or because of Synth’s great number of advantages over many species, none would not be able to serve in command roles, because if they too rejected their positions then their abilties would make them able to similarly declare death in larger numbers than say, an average human.

It presumes a baseline of abilties, and assumes that someone with greater abilties therefore greater capacity for damage or destruction must be automatically treated as a greater risk, which is by definition a form of prejudgment that doesn’t allow for true equality or trust.

And though ‪‪I don’t agree, ‪‪I appreciate your position, and well thought out articulation.

Yeah, I feel uncomfortable with the idea of prejudice of that sort. The difference is, in some ways, just order of magnitude (in terms of ability to cause harm). Again, I think it's more about checks than anything else, and other species have advantages or whatever, but they are still within the ability to counter. Vulcans are stronger and can telepathically attack you, but they would still have a limited ability to cause harm.

Just to be clear, I was also not arguing against Zora's right to exist, and I am glad trust won out. Zora has shown time and again worthy of trust. Anyone can be doing some kind of long-con of eventually doing something evil, of course. But we would never be able to accomplish anything if we don't trust. And that's a risk Starfleet inherently takes.

 

[nic3636]

Zora will fall in love with Voyager. You heard it here first.

If Voyager is captained by holographic Janeway the key to her heart is some holographic coffee.

 

[thribs]

If Voyager is captained by holographic Janeway the key to her heart is some holographic coffee.

Considering the actress is dating Chris Pine, the USS Kirk perhaps?

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

Yeah, I feel uncomfortable with the idea of prejudice of that sort. The difference is, in some ways, just order of magnitude (in terms of ability to cause harm). Again, I think it's more about checks than anything else, and other species have advantages or whatever, but they are still within the ability to counter. Vulcans are stronger and can telepathically attack you, but they would still have a limited ability to cause harm.

Just to be clear, I was also not arguing against Zora's right to exist, and I am glad trust won out. Zora has shown time and again worthy of trust. Anyone can be doing some kind of long-con of eventually doing something evil, of course. But we would never be able to accomplish anything if we don't trust. And that's a risk Starfleet inherently takes.

Yes, absolutely. ‪‪I didn’t mean to misrepresent what you were trying to say, ‪‪and I do see your point. I just see it as a bit of (and ‪‪I hate to use this term) a slippery slope to actively implement checks against individuals, since, for example, they don’t have anything in place that neutralizes telepathy to account for Vulcans and Betazoids, etc.. *Edited to add: The line of thinking always reminds me of the Kurt Vonnegut short story Harrison Bergeron, where the misguided “Handicapper General” enforced a twisted idea of equality that made everyone equal, with physical implements to put everyone on the same level, and destroy anything unique and remarkable.

And on some level I sort of see the issue of magnitude as a moot point, considering the number of times we’ve seen StarFleet officers influenced or controlled by an outside entity/being. Most importantly, as you said, the risk of trust is inherent in the story of StarFleet. And ‪‪I think Zora’s story is a great example of accepting new beings, and just looking at the new, previously unexplored things in the universe optimistically, is what both StarFleet and Star Trek are all about.

 

[DEWLine]

It occurs to me that Zora has had access to the entirety of Federation law, Starfleet regulations, the case law history attached to both for quite some time. That could eliminate the perceived need for violence in a great many potential conflicts with the present-day authorities from Zora's perspective.

 

[Amaris]

I'm so pleased with the idea of a self-aware, emergent computer becoming a new life form, and wanting to protect her people because she loves them. What a nice change of pace from the usual.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Zora will fall in love with Voyager. You heard it here first.

You're shipping ships?

 

[Captrek]

And, other than on VGR, I think all self-destruct sequences required multiple authorizations, not just some random captain declaring herself arbiter of death for a large group of people.

The Director’s Cut of TMP also has Kirk able to order self-destruct on his own.

 

[DEWLine]

Should we look to the works of Anne McCaffrey in reply to your question, @Ar-Pharazon ?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Should we look to the works of Anne McCaffrey in reply to your question, @Ar-Pharazon ?

I don't believe I ever heard of The Brain & Brawn Ship series, but it sounds a bit like the basis for Moya/Leviathans. I wonder how they did the deed?

 

[ToddCam]

Yes, absolutely. ‪‪I didn’t mean to misrepresent what you were trying to say, ‪‪and I do see your point. I just see it as a bit of (and ‪‪I hate to use this term) a slippery slope to actively implement checks against individuals, since, for example, they don’t have anything in place that neutralizes telepathy to account for Vulcans and Betazoids, etc.. *Edited to add: The line of thinking always reminds me of the Kurt Vonnegut short story Harrison Bergeron, where the misguided “Handicapper General” enforced a twisted idea of equality that made everyone equal, with physical implements to put everyone on the same level, and destroy anything unique and remarkable.

And on some level I sort of see the issue of magnitude as a moot point, considering the number of times we’ve seen StarFleet officers influenced or controlled by an outside entity/being. Most importantly, as you said, the risk of trust is inherent in the story of StarFleet. And ‪‪I think Zora’s story is a great example of accepting new beings, and just looking at the new, previously unexplored things in the universe optimistically, is what both StarFleet and Star Trek are all about.

Can I say my heart is warmed by this discussion? Getting a little misty-eyed here. (not sarcasm!)

I am very aware of the silliness of considering power levels when it comes to Star Trek itself. Love the franchise, but it's absurdly easy to take over ships. I mean, the Tarkas dude just teleported right next to the UFP president in the middle of a meeting of heads of state and high ranking diplomats with no apparent security response. And Book did it like a minute later!