Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x05 - "The Examples"

[Tuskin38]

in Italian *everything* is either male or female, including objects (in a totally arbitrary way), and everything is declined. If in English you say “I’ve been to the market” in Italian it’s “sono stato al mercato”, whose literal translation would be “I, male, have been to the market, male” (yes, the market is male...it just is!).

It's the same in french IIRC

 

[Sci]

Book is Captain of his own ship and goes on missions.

Book privately owns his ship -- it is not Starfleet property, and he is not a Starfleet officer. To whatever extent he conducts missions, he's clearly a civilian working on a voluntary basis with Starfleet rather than as an officer under Starfleet authority.

And he is emotionally compromised. He should not be doing missions - he should be on the equivalent of “desk duty” until he is ready.

No one gets to assign him "desk duty." It's his ship and he can go wherever he wants. He's not accountable to anyone else.

 

[jackoverfull]

It's the same in french IIRC

it could very well be, I don’t remember enough of French to confirm it. Do you know how the French address non-binary people?

 

[PiotrB]

in Italian *everything* is either male or female, including objects (in a totally arbitrary way), and everything is declined. If in English you say “I’ve been to the market” in Italian it’s “sono stato al mercato”, whose literal translation would be “I, male, have been to the market, male” (yes, the market is male...it just is!).

The same is true of many languages in which there is grammatical gender:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_languages_with_grammatical_gender
For example, in Polish your example would be for a woman: 'Byłam na targu.' and for a man: 'Byłem na targu.' A non-binary person has no way to say it gender neutral. Any such statements by Adira were translated as: We have done something.
A similar problem in translation was and is with Quark's female. In English it was clear from the context that the word was offensive and the correct one was woman. Meanwhile, in Polish at least, both words are translated as 'kobieta'.

 

[ToddCam]

In Spanish as well. I've had some trouble with dealing with my org trying to impose Latinx on everyone, while I prefer Latine (I am Latine and LGBTQ+). But there's just so much confusion in terms of what the words even refer to...

 

[Cap'n Calhoun]

Mr. Spock (2) would disagree. He would not go through the halls weeping to keep up crew morale.

Spock Two would disagree? I thought he was bigger than that.

 

[Fateor]

In Spanish as well. I've had some trouble with dealing with my org trying to impose Latinx on everyone, while I prefer Latine (I am Latine and LGBTQ+). But there's just so much confusion in terms of what the words even refer to...

Yea... That whole Latinx thing is super white privilege and cultural imperialism being pushed by a group of rich influencers who just really don't get it...

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Book privately owns his ship -- it is not Starfleet property, and he is not a Starfleet officer. To whatever extent he conducts missions, he's clearly a civilian working on a voluntary basis with Starfleet rather than as an officer under Starfleet authority.



No one gets to assign him "desk duty." It's his ship and he can go wherever he wants. He's not accountable to anyone else.

That's the beauty of being a independent Ship Owner/Operator.

They can do whatever they want since they don't work for an organization like StarFleet.

Same with Rios & Book.

Book is realistically only on Discovery because of his romantic relationship with Burnham.

 

[jackoverfull]

For example, in Polish your example would be for a woman: 'Byłam na targu.' and for a man: 'Byłem na targu.' A non-binary person has no way to say it gender neutral. Any such statements by Adira were translated as: We have done something

fascinating, thanks. Is this a common solution in polish society or it’s just a Star Trek thing?

A similar problem in translation was and is with Quark's female. In English it was clear from the context that the word was offensive and the correct one was woman. Meanwhile, in Polish at least, both words are translated as 'kobieta'

interesting. In Italian “femmina” can be used with a similarly offensive meaning, so we didn’t have this problem.

 

[jackoverfull]

To add the issue of why we’ll probably never use a plural form for non binary people, that form is already used as a courtesy form (similarly to how the English plural you gradually became singular as well and exactly like the French do), to further compound the issue, the “voi” was pushed by the new lexicon the fascists tried to impose, trying to supplant the “less fascist” (or whatever) “lei” (she, which is the common courtesy form both for males and females), so it would be really difficult to repurpose it for something else. Right now there have been a few proposed solutions for the written language, such as the shwa or the asterisk (for example tutt* instead of tutti or tutte), but those don’t really translate well to the oral language.

 

[SJGardner]

Sometimes I'm glad my native language doesn't have grammatical genders at all. Of course, the translators had to alter the dialogue with Stamets calling Adira a clever girl, to which they replied they're not a girl and they'd appreciate it if they weren't referred to with words that assign them a gender from now on. I think that was basically the only way they could've done it in Hungarian.

 

[DEWLine]

Discovery doesn't air in the PRC.
No issues if they don't get the show.

If that theme park goes up in China...they'll think back to Alibaba and TenCent money funnelled into Beyond...and they're going to want script approval.

 

[Amaris]

If that theme park goes up in China...they'll think back to Alibaba and TenCent money funnelled into Beyond...and they're going to want script approval.

I didn't know they were building one. Checked it out, and wow, I'd love to go there! I'm still annoyed I never got to see Star Trek: On Ice back when it was at King's Island.

 

[DEWLine]

I did miss the bridge crew but read yesterday, they were rotating the cast to protect from covid.

That's cool. We get more world-building out of that. And the crew gets built out a bit more.

 

[Tuskin38]

If that theme park goes up in China...they'll think back to Alibaba and TenCent money funnelled into Beyond...and they're going to want script approval.

Dubbing changes sure, but nothing will change for the english releases.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Book privately owns his ship -- it is not Starfleet property, and he is not a Starfleet officer. To whatever extent he conducts missions, he's clearly a civilian working on a voluntary basis with Starfleet rather than as an officer under Starfleet authority.



No one gets to assign him "desk duty." It's his ship and he can go wherever he wants. He's not accountable to anyone else.

Well, Starfleet is an operating agency enforcing laws and regulations within territory claimed by the Federation. Book is residing within the Federation, and probably subject to its law (and as long as he resides on a starship, the Captain's word is generally law).

Starfleet has a duty to protect its citizens, and some sort of mantra to protect the innocent in its path as well. If Book is a danger to anyone, he should absolutely be placed into some sort of care facility and treated. But, you know, he hasn't demonstrated anything approaching dangerous behavior, and he has the Captain's trust, atm, regarding his activities.

In the 23rd century, Harry Mudd needed to forge a "master's license" to operate a civilian starship, and we can presume that others like Rios have one and probably regularly updates the Federation on his activities. The 32nd century is still a wild west, and Starfleet probably can't enforce such control over its own Federation citizenry, let alone this refugee from a lost planet.

 

[Search4]

Book privately owns his ship -- it is not Starfleet property, and he is not a Starfleet officer. To whatever extent he conducts missions, he's clearly a civilian working on a voluntary basis with Starfleet rather than as an officer under Starfleet authority.



No one gets to assign him "desk duty." It's his ship and he can go wherever he wants. He's not accountable to anyone else.

So what is the rationale for bringing the civilian to the prison complex?

 

[fireproof78]

So what is the rationale for bringing the civilian to the prison complex?

Consultant.

 

[NCC-73515]

it is, but it’s unfortunately perfectly in line with our society, whose awareness on this kind of issue is 10/15 years behind many other countries.

very good question, the answer is no. Non-binary people basically “do not exist” in the public awareness, in fact even being homosexual is just starting to become a somewhat accepted sexual orientation, other sexual orientations or the idea of having a different sexual identity than “the norm” is pretty much considered beyond the comprehensible by most. Givi it time and things will change, of course.

Also, the issue of non-binary people is further issued by the language: in English its just using “they” when talking about them and conjugate the verbs appropriately, in German they have a real (even if really messed up) neutral pronoun, in Italian *everything* is either male or female, including objects (in a totally arbitrary way), and everything is declined. If in English you say “I’ve been to the market” in Italian it’s “sono stato al mercato”, whose literal translation would be “I, male, have been to the market, male” (yes, the market is male...it just is!).

My French music teacher was outraged that "baby" is neutral in German, because that's rude - it's male in French, so I said: 'what about all the female babies?' And he said at that early point in life they don't care about being called male. But they do about being neutral, right. XD

 

[jackoverfull]

Sometimes I'm glad my native language doesn't have grammatical genders at all. Of course, the translators had to alter the dialogue with Stamets calling Adira a clever girl, to which they replied they're not a girl and they'd appreciate it if they weren't referred to with words that assign them a gender from now on. I think that was basically the only way they could've done it in Hungarian.

Sounds well done

My French music teacher was outraged that "baby" is neutral in German, because that's rude - it's male in French, so I said: 'what about all the female babies?' And he said at that early point in life they don't care about being called male. But they do about being neutral, right. XD

lol!
Of course in Italian we have to use arcane words such as progenie to identify a child without assigning a gender and plenty of terms both male and female abound.

And note that progenie is technically feminine, even if you can use it for male children as well.