Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x04 - "All Is Possible"

[eschaton]

That's a very slippery slope line of thinking, and having tendencies to date one race and reject another doesn't make one a racist. And I say this as an Asian man who has been hit by all the "unmasculine" stereotypes of Asian males in the real world, and studies have shown that Asian men have the most trouble in online dating. But I never once said or seriously thought "Women ignoring me on dating websites are racist". That's just not true, I'm never going to make that accusation despite my own struggles, and that's just a dangerous line of thinking that I just block from my mind, despite the temptation for my brain to go there in my darkest moments.

I get what you're saying, I'm not talking about individual attitudes here, but the aggregate across the entire country. In general, Asian Americans do intermarry at pretty high rates. For example, from the Pew study from 2017:

While 24% of foreign-born Asian newlyweds have a spouse of a different race or ethnicity, this share rises to 46% among the U.S. born.

It is of course a bit skewed by gender as well, but the fact remains that among U.S.-born Asians, about half outmarry. Which means - if there wasn't a constant influx of new Asians coming from overseas - the amount of part-Asian people would continue to rise, and the number of pure Asians would shrink.

Same thing happened in the U.S. with Jews. There used to be a lot more anti-Semitism in the U.S. a century ago, but now it's lessened, and around half of non-Orthodox Jews marry outside of their faith (60%+ of those since 2010). It's resulting in a lot more people of partially-Jewish ancestry as time goes on. And as a result, the number of Jewish people who aren't Orthodox is dropping over time.

 

[Commander Troi]

I go have surgery and look how many posts I have to catch up on!

So, I LOVED this episode. Culber + Book, plus hints at Culber's "demons". An updated Galileo 7 (remembering that some viewers have never seen the original ep). And watching the political tightropes our presidents have to walk. All A+ for me.

This is actually a problem I have with modern genre TV, especially Disco and the CW shows, where the actors stand on their mark and deliver their lines. They stand while the camera moves. It's like they're static in the scene.

They don't feel naturalistic. They're overly staged and their dialogue is overly self-aware. But the actors do their best, and Disco has one of the best cast on TV right now.

It's like genre TV has moved away from naturalistic dialogue, the type you saw on TOS or on contemporary non-genre dramas.*

*Although shows like The Expanse and the reboot Lost in Space are much better at this.

Thank you! You've put your finger on something I couldn't quite articulate. OK, now that I realize it's a style "fad", I can deal with it better.

I disagree they need to give Gray more to do. Maybe they make it like Miles/Keiko in TNG where Adira is the one who goes out and does things and Gray is the stay at home partner who just gets a little screen time here and there. I would be fine with that.

I'd be fine with that, but given how young they are and how little of their life they got to live, I'd prefer the "off to the Academy" option or something like it. Give Gray room to grow and develop as their own person. I think time away from each other would do both Gray and Adira good.

Judging by what happened when Jadzia lost the Dax symbiont, Gray likely remembers absolutely nothing of the previous Tal lives now. Which should honestly lead him to have some sort of existential crisis.

Totally! Which could easily lead to Gray trying to find themselves and their path.

Regardless of McCoy's bombast, we all knew that he, Kirk and Spock were the best of friends and most, if not all, of McCoy's emotional bloviations were out of profound caring for his friends. There was empathy there.

Stamets? No... he thinks he cares about Culber, but he's an emotionally selfish creature, never really once genuinely caring about Culber's resurrection plight, but only insofar as how it would affect Stamets if Culber walked away from it all.

There are real people like that, many with ASD being the reason for their apparent lack of empathy or understanding of emotional and social cues and situations. I could see Stamets as having ASD and it would make another nice addition to Trek's acceptance and diversity message.

I'm married to someone a bit like Stamets, and think they both () show signs of being on the Autism spectrum. I'd love to see DIS do something with that, especially since so many people in fandom have ASD.

For example, I ship Owo and Detmer. In my little narrative, they're a power couple who, when on shore leave together, engage in extreme sports competitions, and they burn off the rest of their adrenaline with the most mind blowing sex ever experienced.

Their short term dream is to fist fight a set of gorn twins and just see where that takes them.

FIC! NEED FIC OF THIS NOW!

As I've said in the past, I think the scenario with people wanting "more" of the bridge crew dates back to a disconnect between the scriptwriters and the visuals team and the direction in Season 1.

Basically, it was very, very clear given the way the show was scripted the bridge crew were meant to be unimportant - just there to spout off a couple lines of exposition, nothing less, and nothing more. But the designers had fun with a few of them, giving Detmer the prosthetic and undercut, Owo a nice distinctive haircut, and Airiam very detailed makeup. This was really different from how Berman Trek treated the extras - where they were meant to look as boring as possible, so as even when they got a line or two, we never noticed they were in 50+ episodes. In addition, the camera treated them like characters, often lingering on their faces for "reaction shots" after a main cast member said something. These cues made people read them not as props, but people, and left people wanting to know more about them. And frankly, they started catering to this fan desire as early as Season 2, giving Owo a backstory and Airiam an entire episode, and continued in Season 3 with Detmer getting an entire PTSD arc.

I don't think we necessarily need to know more about the bridge crew. But I think the writers to some extent continue to struggle because the main cast doesn't align with the bridge crew, which means that traditional Trek stories can't be told without finding some way to shoehorn everyone in each week. I also do think it would be a nice change of pace to have a "Lower Decks" style episode where we followed the bridge crew and got to see the mains from their frame of reference instead, but that's a like to, not a need to.

Good point! And a good, thought-provoking discussion after. Stuff I hadn't thought about.

Personally, I would *love* to see that "Lower Decks" style episode. I think it could be really fun.

TRAVIS: Captain! We're dead in the water. All forward motion has stopped. Thrusters are inoperative.
ARCHER: What? T'Pol?
T'POL: Confirmed. Our warp field has turned fluidic. And we are being supported by a column of transparent polyresin. There seems to be a sphere of glass surrounding the liquid. We are, effectively, trapped.
TRIP: Bridge! I don't know what's going on outside, but we're taking in water through the launch bay doors!
ARCHER: Polarize the hull plating! Trip! Seal all doors and docking ports! Malcolm? Can we launch a torpedo to disperse the field?
MALCOLM: Negative. Targeting sensors are registering severe distortion. Unable to compensate.
TRIP: Captain, if we somehow manage to break through this, we're looking at a real bumpy crash to the floor of wherever the hell this is. It'll take three minutes to reinitialize thruster control. And our extended warranty just expired.
ARCHER: Mister Reed. Prepare the grappler. And launch all torpedoes on my mark. Hoshi? Address intercraft.
HOSHI: Ready.
ARCHER: All hands brace for impact. We're going to attempt to free ourselves from this anomaly. I won't lie to you--I don't know how we got here or what strange new world lies outside waiting for our discovery, but we're going to make some history today because of you...all is possible.

 

[dupersuper]

Because those are not attempting anything too new. Discovery attempted new and now is a pariah for it.

The first Star Trek comedy and the first Star Trek short form anthology didn't try anything new? Ok.......

because it's reheated ''familiar'' food sprinkled with ''humor'' and in my opinion overstayed it's welcome by season 2 which i did not and will probably not finish

...Did some one else choose your avatar?

Janeway was "always right"
Archer was "always right"

We definitely watched different versions of Voyager and Enterprise...

The idiot captain who got stabbed last episode
.

Wasn't he a commander?

Some similarities there. So far, for me, the main series Captain's ranking would be:

Sisko
Picard
Kirk
Janeway
Freeman
Burnham
Archer

Ooo, is this a thing we're doing?

Kirk
Picard
Sisko
Pike
Georgiuo (prime)
Saru
Burnham
Freeman
Janeway/Archer (tied for last)

I've liked what I've read/seen of Calhoun, the Sulus, April, Laforge, Nog, Paris, Kim, Ezri, Worf, the Enterprise F captain, Garrett and Harriman in various novels and comics, and seen in video games and fan stuff.

No, that's just how SMG does things, she's the same way vocally in every role she's played.

As I said before, she's just never been taught to project, or properly utilize the tonal range when expression emotions.

I take it you haven't seen her in New Girl?

They're not even going to deal with Gray's loss of his symbiont, are they? You'd think that'd be kind of a thing for a Trill.

Actually, Gray probably doesn't care, as he wants to be a Guardian and AFAIK all Guardians have to be unjoined.

But...wasn't he trying to be one while joined?

Yeah, I almost feel that "Short Treks" (which will likely not return now that they have a more full-slate of regular shows) would be needed just to flesh out these other characters correctly. I had completely forgotten about Reno, for example, who was introduced with such fanfare all the way back in S2...and then basically became an afterthought.

DSC would be better served if:

1. They focused on Burnham, Stamets, Culber, and Saru as the main cast, giving them the majority of focus, contribution, dialogue, and interplay.
3. Use Reno, Detmer, and Owo as secondary characters, in much the same way TOS used Chekov, Scotty and (to a lesser extent unfortunately) Uhura and Sulu.
4. Keep the others in the background as supporting players..., but not be focal to any particular story.

Add Book to point 1 (and Tilly before she left) and...these are exactly what they are doing.

It was more to get away from canon limits than a new era to explore.

That could've been easily accomplished by going to the 25th or 26th century.

This appears to be what fans want or at least more safe and familiar. At least the more vocal ones.

Yes yes yes: any one who has issues with Discovery just wants comfort food. We've heard it a thousand times before, but just keep repeating it.

Knowledge is not what's important. Infrastructure is. If you cut off the flow of trade, your ability to construct things falls apart and machines break. So they could be using technology vastly inferior just because they no longer have access to the machinery to make top of the line tech.

It happens all the time in RL.

What do they need that they can only get in interstellar trade?

 

[fireproof78]

We definitely watched different versions of Voyager and Enterprise...

And different versions of Discovery too.

The first Star Trek comedy and the first Star Trek short form anthology didn't try anything new? Ok.......

Not different enough. It plays with the safe topics of Trek, the familiar settings, and doesn't do anything unexpected.

That could've been easily accomplished by going to the 25th or 26th century.

On this point we agree.

Yes yes yes: any one who has issues with Discovery just wants comfort food. We've heard it a thousand times before, but just keep repeating it.

I have no plans on stopping, any more than those who don't like Discovery will stop watching it.

 

[dupersuper]

Not different enough. It plays with the safe topics of Trek, the familiar settings, and doesn't do anything unexpected.

Really? I certainly never expected that from the Pakleds...or that there was a ray that turned people into puppets...

 

[fireproof78]

Really? I certainly never expected that from the Pakleds...or that there was a ray that turned people into puppets...

But how is that different from other Trek? Honestly? It's just safe with the setting. It doesn't change it at all

 

[nic3636]

But how is that different from other Trek? Honestly? It's just safe with the setting. It doesn't change it at all

That's why I liked S1 so much. New technology / science fiction concept (spore drive), new setting (wartime), and new personality type for a Star Trek captain. It pushed the boundaries of the franchise and it worked pretty well right up until the end.

This is why I think S3 really missed an opportunity to explore something different. How will the Federation react when the chips are down, their backs are against the wall, and they are just fighting to survive? How do you make the difficult choices? Do you make alliances with evil organizations like the Emerald Chain because if you don't they will start attacking your member worlds? Can you say true to your idealistic principles or do you have to change?

It was a real missed opportunity IMO, they never really touched on any of this and at the end of the season it was like everything just went back to normal.

 

[fireproof78]

was a real missed opportunity IMO, they never really touched on any of this and at the end of the season it was like everything just went back to normal.

Which is what current Trek does. Safe, predictable, and nothing dramatic. Watching the comments of "this is like past Trek. Do more!" indicates this is preferred.

 

[nic3636]

Which is what current Trek does. Safe, predictable, and nothing dramatic. Watching the comments of "this is like past Trek. Do more!" indicates this is preferred.

There is some of that. Personally I just want quality. Past Trek is a proven model that works, so I'm fine with that route if it produces decent quality. I'm also all for bold and different, but they need to have the skill to execute on that, which has mostly been hit or miss so far.

 

[fireproof78]

There is some of that. Personally I just want quality. Past Trek is a proven model that works, so I'm fine with that route if it produces decent quality. I'm also all for bold and different, but they need to have the skill to execute on that, which has mostly been hit or miss so far.

I'll take missed and different over safe and familiar.

 

[Sci]

No, that's just how SMG does things, she's the same way vocally in every role she's played.

As I said before, she's just never been taught to project, or properly utilize the tonal range when expression emotions.

Sonequa Martin-Green graduated from the University of Alabama Department of Theatre and Dance with a B.A. in theatre in 2007. An overview of their curriculum can be viewed here. In addition, since graduating, she has been cast in ten films (having been cast in another film during her time as an undergrad), and has been a star or guest star on eleven different television series not counting Star Trek: Discovery.

Maybe it's not a matter of, "she's just never been taught to project." Maybe, it's incredibly disrespectful to assert that a successful professional with a literal degree in her field "has just never been taught" the most elementary thing every actor learns in their craft. Maybe she's just making acting choices you don't like. Which is fine! But you shouldn't assume a deliberate choice is made out of ignorance just because you don't like it.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yep. You don't get a degree in the theatrical arts without having been taught how to project on stage. As to what you do with that knowledge after graduation and once you embark on your acting career? That is up to you and you can make both good and bad choices in how to portray a character, but the idea that you weren't even taught how to do something when you have the degree to show it is just laughable B.S.

 

[Sci]

Yep. You don't get a degree in the theatrical arts without having been taught how to project on stage. As to what you do with that knowledge after graduation and once you embark on your acting career? That is up to you and you can make both good and bad choices in how to portray a character, but the idea that you weren't even taught how to do something when you have the degree to show it is just laughable B.S.

Exactly. Also, voice projection in film and television is a very different skill from voice projection in live theatre. A lot of things are dependent upon the microphone, its placement, the sound mix, and whether or not you've got to do ADR; you calibrate your performance based upon the equipment and what the director and sound people need from you. So if Martin-Green's voice is too loud or whatever for someone's subjective tastes, then that's a result of a decision she and the director and the sound people made collectively.

 

[jackoverfull]

Well, what she does on the series (the burnham whisper) is not something you can usually do in a theatre.

Now, I found it extremely annoying last season, this one, so far, not so much.

 

[Fateor]

Sonequa Martin-Green graduated from the University of Alabama Department of Theatre and Dance with a B.A. in theatre in 2007. An overview of their curriculum can be viewed here. In addition, since graduating, she has been cast in ten films (having been cast in another film during her time as an undergrad), and has been a star or guest star on eleven different television series not counting Star Trek: Discovery.

Maybe it's not a matter of, "she's just never been taught to project." Maybe, it's incredibly disrespectful to assert that a successful professional with a literal degree in her field "has just never been taught" the most elementary thing every actor learns in their craft. Maybe she's just making acting choices you don't like. Which is fine! But you shouldn't assume a deliberate choice is made out of ignorance just because you don't like it.

Okay then... She's just a really bad actress since obviously her training can't be blamed...

Also... In hollywood at that level of production 8 times out of 10 it's not skill that gets you parts... It's who you know... And I state this with authority as someone who's friends with multiple c list directors and had to listen to their rants on the subject.

 

[Sci]

Okay then... She's just a really bad actress

No, she's a wonderful actor who has done an excellent job of portraying Michael's transition from a traumatized, emotionally repressed adopted daughter of Vulcans to a compassionate, empathetic leader.

You just don't like her acting choices.

since obviously her training can't be blamed...

It can't be blamed, and it was ridiculous of you to just assume she hadn't received training.

Also... In hollywood at that level of production 8 times out of 10 it's not skill that gets you parts... It's who you know... And I state this with authority as someone who's friends with multiple c list directors and had to listen to their rants on the subject.

Ah, yes, the famous University-of-Alabama-to-Hollywood-stardom pipeline!

 

[Commander Troi]

What do they need that they can only get in interstellar trade?

Experience with other species and cultures. As we saw in this ep, some of these cadets had never met anyone outside their own species. Ignorance leads to distrust.

Historically, innovation happens in places with lots of trade because of the ideas sparked when people from different backgrounds and cultures meet and communicate. Without that, cultures can stagnate.

 

[XCV330]

Wasn't he a commander?

someone with a rank of Commander can be a captain. The rank and position are two different things. Some ships only require someone with a rank of commander.

 

[dupersuper]

But how is that different from other Trek? Honestly? It's just safe with the setting. It doesn't change it at all

How is turning some one into a puppet different from other Trek? Seriously?

It's a familiar setting but very different storytelling. I don't need it to look different just for differences sake.

Experience with other species and cultures. As we saw in this ep, some of these cadets had never met anyone outside their own species. Ignorance leads to distrust.

Historically, innovation happens in places with lots of trade because of the ideas sparked when people from different backgrounds and cultures meet and communicate. Without that, cultures can stagnate.

That would slow innovation, but not send it backwards.

someone with a rank of Commander can be a captain. The rank and position are two different things. Some ships only require someone with a rank of commander.

Except Burnham says he was the first officer.

 

[fireproof78]

How is turning some one into a puppet different from other Trek? Seriously?

Yes.

It's a familiar setting but very different storytelling. I don't need it to look different just for differences sake.

Mileage will vary.