Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x03 - "Choose to Live"

[Fateor]

The double standard is the tendency to demand Discovery do better or not be Star Trek. To treat it like an exception in the otherwise infallible history of Trek.

And, no, I don't treat it the same as homoohobic or racist behavior.

Because there is a difference between the two.

With the other shows they at least meet a minimum standard of effort, Discovery doesn't.

When every episode matches up to Spock's Brain in the sheer number of logical inconsistencies you just gotta admit the show might have a problem.

 

[nic3636]

They make sense as a balance to Romulans and Vulcans but not on Ni’Var where Vulcans and Romulans are no longer hiding or lying about their feelings to dangerous degrees, and where things appear to be peaceful. The Milat make the most sense in a violent world like what pre-schism Vulcan was probably like, Romulan Empire oppression, and then the lawless Neutral Zone. They should be a dying breed in DIS, or already gone, or stayed off world where all the violent lost causes are with no presence on Ni’Var.

I don't really have a problem with the way the Milat are portrayed on Discovery. I assume the burn brought tough times on NiVar just like everyone else creating a lot of work for the order. Though we don't know how they operate outside of J’Vini's actions (which may not be reflective of how the rest of the order operates). Would be interesting if this came up as NiVar re-joins the Federation as I assume the Federation would object to the Milat going around killing people based on their sense of justice.

Because 'it looks cool'... or at least its 'supposed' to be.

Yeah, this is really the only reason. Sci fi is taking a back seat to other things in Discovery (actions, visuals, feelings, etc.). It's just the way things are. Michelle Paradise is not a sci-fi person and Kurtzman loves the razzle dazzle special effects stuff (spinning ships, flashing lights, flame throwers, etc.). They will do something if they think it looks cool and not care about the science side. Nothing wrong with it per se. Each series should try to carve out its own niche and clearly there's an audience for this stuff. We can debate it as a thought exercise but the writers are not thinking about it at all.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

And Kira had an uncanny knack for being able to beat anyone up, regardless of how they were built relative to her. Sort of an inverse Worf effect in ways.

I mean of all Trek characters she is probably the toughest. The only one comes close is rape gang dodging Yar

 

[Fateor]

I don't really have a problem with the way the Milat are portrayed on Discovery. I assume the burn brought tough times on NiVar just like everyone else creating a lot of work for the order. Though we don't know how they operate outside of J’Vini's actions (which may not be reflective of how the rest of the order operates). Would be interesting if this came up as NiVar re-joins the Federation as I assume the Federation would object to the Milat going around killing people based on their sense of justice.

That idea is kind of odd given NiVar with access to Romulan technology is one of the places that should have weathered the Burn just fine.

 

[nic3636]

That idea is kind of odd given NiVar with access to Romulan technology is one of the places that should have weathered the Burn just fine.

Are you saying that because Romulan ships are powered with a singularity? Has it been established that their ships do not use dilithium at all?

Edit to expand a little: Starfleet ships are powered by an matter/antimatter reaction that is focused by dilithium. Romulan ships are powered by a singularity but they might still need dilithium for the focusing part.

 

[cooleddie74]

Nope. Precious little has been established about the engine technology of Romulan ships except that they can also reach warp. Dilithium could well have been used in Romulan singularity drives.

 

[nic3636]

So if Romulan ships did use dilithium the burn might have hit them even harder assuming the singularities were unstable which may be true given that episode of TNG where a Romulan singularity created all those issues around the flow of time.

 

[fireproof78]

Because there is a difference between the two.

With the other shows they at least meet a minimum standard of effort, Discovery doesn't.

When every episode matches up to Spock's Brain in the sheer number of logical inconsistencies you just gotta admit the show might have a problem.

Yeah, I disagree pretty much across the board. The standard for Discovery is unreasonable.

 

[Fateor]

Nope. Precious little has been established about the engine technology of Romulan ships except that they can also reach warp. Dilithium could well have been used in Romulan singularity drives.

Dilithium is used to regulate matter/anti matter reactions.

Guess what isn't involved in a singularity?

 

[cooleddie74]

It's a fictional universe using varying forms of ficitonal science. If the creators ever say Romulan ships used dilithium then they did.

 

[JoaquinSlowly]

Yeah, I disagree pretty much across the board. The standard for Discovery is unreasonable.

Agreed!

And hyperbolic straw men, like stating that every episode of Discovery is equally as preposterous/inconsistent as Spock’s Brain, doesn’t just fail to disprove a double standard, it demonstrates it.

 

[nic3636]

Yeah, I disagree pretty much across the board. The standard for Discovery is unreasonable.

Were you a Star Trek fan in the 90s? Star Trek fans are notorious for complaining about everything, all the previous series got so much hate. I really don't think Discovery is being singled out other than because it's the show that's airing right now.

 

[fireproof78]

Were you a Star Trek fan in the 90s? Star Trek fans are notorious for complaining about everything, all the previous series got so much hate. I really don't think Discovery is being singled out other than because it's the show that's airing right now.

Yes I was a fan in the 90s. No, I did not here the complaining. That I got to enjoy with Kelvin Trek and the ridiculous name calling.

 

[jackoverfull]

Because 'it looks cool'... or at least its 'supposed' to be.
We do have examples in both TNG and VOY where ships can make turns inside Warp without fracturing the hull (which is more than doable - and Paris did mention that course corrections 'could' fracture the hull... so its not a given). But those were done for specific reasons and not too frequently.

indeed, turning at warp is definitely possible and indeed the several different warp effects we’ve got in the past few years are definitely done for the cool factor.
How cheap copies of Star wars’ hyperspace effect is cooler than the majestic passing of stars we got before is beyond me, but it is what it is.

Dilithium is used to regulate matter/anti matter reactions.

Guess what isn't involved in a singularity?

how do you know what is or isn’t involved in the maintenance of a singularity based reactor? For all we know prune juice could be paramount in regulating the energy flow!

Jokes aside, I think we have enough circumstantial evidence to assume that either the singularity based reactors relied on di lithium or they had stopped using them for some reason by the time the burn happened (perhaps they were banned by the temporal accords, as they caused temporal disturbances).

Yes I was a fan in the 90s. No, I did not here the complaining. That I got to enjoy with Kelvin Trek and the ridiculous name calling.

you weren’t in contact with many fans in the 90s?

 

[nic3636]

Yes I was a fan in the 90s. No, I did not here the complaining. That I got to enjoy with Kelvin Trek and the ridiculous name calling.

Interesting, I remember non-stop complaining about everything. If there is more complaining now it's probably because so much time has passed since the previous series. The new series are obviously going to be (and should be) different from the series from 20 years ago, but since both carry the "Star Trek" title people are inevitably going to make comparisons and dislike the differences. You see some of that with Star Wars as well.

So Discovery might get a little extra hate because of the passage of time, but I don't think it's being unfairly singled out. This kind of stuff comes with the territory when resurrecting a 50 year old franchise. They did it cause they want the fans from before, well if you want the fans be prepared for the hate from the ones who don't like the changes.

 

[fireproof78]

you weren’t in contact with many fans in the 90s?

Aside from friends, fan groups and science fiction cons no, not at all.

 

[jackoverfull]

Interesting, I remember non-stop complaining about everything. If there is more complaining now it's probably because so much time has passed since the previous series. The new series are obviously going to be (and should be) different from the series from 20 years ago, but since both carry the "Star Trek" title people are inevitably going to make comparisons and dislike the differences. You see some of that with Star Wars as well.

So Discovery might get a little extra hate because of the passage of time, but I don't think it's being unfairly singled out. This kind of stuff comes with the territory when resurrecting a 50 year old franchise. They did it cause they want the fans from before, well if you want the fans be prepared for the hate from the ones who don't like the changes.

agreed. I remember a lot of hate for TNG when you couldn’t have Star Trek without Kirk and Spock, for ds9 because you couldn’t have Star Trek without the enterprise (and with a black commander that wasn’t even captain), for voy because I don’t even know what (and you can’t have a woman captain), for 7 of 9 because she was too sexy, for enterprise because it was a prequel and had a sexy Vulcans and blue uniforms and for the Abrams movies for the recast and a lot of other things.

And I’m not saying it was all hate, in fact there were some really good points thrown around at times, I’m just saying that there is literally no difference from now, if not that it’s much easier to get into these debates with the internet being so popular.

Ah, and I’m not old enough to have experienced the “hate” on the TOS movies, but with Roddenberry trying boycott campaigns and so on I suspect the situation was similar back then as well.

 

[fireproof78]

It is different because it is unkind not just at the show itself but anyone who dares like it. It is less polite and more divisive.

 

[jackoverfull]

It is different because it is unkind not just at the show itself but anyone who dares like it. It is less polite and more divisive.

just like everything these days, were every topic is more divisive and every discussion less polite. Welcome to the 2020s.

 

[fireproof78]

just like everything these days, were every topic is more divisive and every discussion less polite. Welcome to the 2020s.

And? I'll not take unkindness lying down.