Section 31: I hope it still happens.

[fireproof78]

I hope Section 31 gets made. I have no interest in Yeoh but the show itself is something of a curiosity of mine to see.

I get it that S31 rubs many the wrong way; I'm not one of them. It's a wonderful idealized idea that Star Trek portrays that the heroes always do the right thing and can never have organizations like Section 31, but that isn't what the franchise actually puts forward. We have the heroes engaging in espionage, we have high ranking officers deciding on unauthorized action for what they deem to be a benefit, either personal or for the greater good of the Federation. And in all of that you have Section 31 which strikes me as the most logical outgrowth of a slowing growing Federation, against powers they didn't quite understanding. So, you had some individuals who felt that the mutual trust and faith of the growing union was not enough and felt compelled to do their own thing to make things right.

The show might not explore any of those things but I'll be interested to see what it does unpack. Because it is as much a part of Star Trek as transporters and phasers.

 

[Dukhat]

Exactly. Because no human subterfuge or skullduggery is required to maintain peace in the Galaxy. Every other species can have a secret organisation but the humans cannot because Gene said magic wand waving solves everything!

That has nothing to do with why I think the idea of Section 31 (and a show about them) is an inherently flawed concept.

I get it that S31 rubs many the wrong way; I'm not one of them. It's a wonderful idealized idea that Star Trek portrays that the heroes always do the right thing and can never have organizations like Section 31, but that isn't what the franchise actually puts forward. We have the heroes engaging in espionage, we have high ranking officers deciding on unauthorized action for what they deem to be a benefit, either personal or for the greater good of the Federation. And in all of that you have Section 31 which strikes me as the most logical outgrowth of a slowing growing Federation, against powers they didn't quite understanding. So, you had some individuals who felt that the mutual trust and faith of the growing union was not enough and felt compelled to do their own thing to make things right.

The show might not explore any of those things but I'll be interested to see what it does unpack. Because it is as much a part of Star Trek as transporters and phasers.

Here's why I don't like the concept of Section 31.

When it debuted in Deep Space Nine, it was great, because we only had Sloane's word that the organization even existed. The way William Sadler played the role, you couldn't tell if he was telling the truth or just making it all up. Was he really a member of a super-secret organization supposedly created during the formation of the Federation to covertly deal with threats before they became public, or was he just full of crap and was some sort of deranged psychopath with his own agenda?

If it had been the latter, then it would have been perfect, because subsequent Section 31 features have shown that an organization like that couldn't be at all viable. Malcolm knew about its existence 200 years before; DSC showed that its existence was common knowledge among Starfleet captains 100 years before, and yet during the TNG era, nobody had ever heard of them? And throughout its entire existence, its members have operated with no autonomy or oversight, and they all happen to act like complete arrogant assholes with piss-poor recruitment tactics? That's just not realistic.

 

[fireproof78]

it had been the latter, then it would have been perfect,

The latter idea is more unrealistic to my mind. An organization united by common principle, while maintaining limited oversight is pretty standard shadow ops. Section 31 strikes me as realistic as most other "top secret " organizations in fiction. It also is a more interesting foil than the bad admiral of the week.

 

[Mudd]

Exactly. Because no human subterfuge or skullduggery is required to maintain peace in the Galaxy.

Yeah...how much do you know about how this works in the real world?

 

[shapeshifter]

Not much, actually. I am just assuming it's Bondish, James Bondish.

DSC showed that its existence was common knowledge among Starfleet captains 100 years before, and yet during the TNG era, nobody had ever heard of them?

100 years is a long time, a lot can happen or change. Something must have happened between it being an open topic and becoming classified.

MWV, but they must think there is a story here to tell. We'll see.

 

[Commander Troi]

Here's why I don't like the concept of Section 31.

When it debuted in Deep Space Nine, it was great, because we only had Sloane's word that the organization even existed. The way William Sadler played the role, you couldn't tell if he was telling the truth or just making it all up. Was he really a member of a super-secret organization supposedly created during the formation of the Federation to covertly deal with threats before they became public, or was he just full of crap and was some sort of deranged psychopath with his own agenda?

That I can understand. Thank you for explaining. Sadler was (as always) perfect.

 

[Dukhat]

100 years is a long time, a lot can happen or change. Something must have happened between it being an open topic and becoming classified.

Nope. The universe of Star Trek has consistently been shown to have both small-universe syndrome and small-time-period- syndrome. There's no way an organization like Section 31 could have been common knowledge to Starfleet in the 2260's and then completely forgotten about in the 2360's.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think 31 was common knowledge. Pike treated it as Intelligence.

 

[Noname Given]

I don't think 31 was common knowledge. Pike treated it as Intelligence.

The U.S.S. Discovery was effectively COMMISSIONED by Section 31 at the start (all the security with the Section 31 black badges); so yeah anyone designated to CAPTAIN the ship (even temporarily) as Pike was in S2 would have to be told the actual situation. just because everyone on the ship (and the Admiralty) knew about Section 31, doesn't mean it was common knowledge.

(Even in the DS9 era the was ample evidence a good number of the TNG era Admiralty knew of the organization too.)

 

[XCV330]

The U.S.S. Discovery was effectively COMMISSIONED by Section 31 at the start (all the security with the Section 31 black badges); so yeah anyone designated to CAPTAIN the ship (even temporarily) as Pike was in S2 would have to be told the actual situation. just because everyone on the ship (and the Admiralty) knew about Section 31, doesn't mean in was common knowledge.

(Even in the DS9 era the was ample evidence a good number of the TNG era Admiralty knew of the organization too.)

seemed like Pike even knew about the Mirror Universe. he was very well informed, but then he's soon to get promoted

 

[fireproof78]

The U.S.S. Discovery was effectively COMMISSIONED by Section 31 at the start (all the security with the Section 31 black badges); so yeah anyone designated to CAPTAIN the ship (even temporarily) as Pike was in S2 would have to be told the actual situation. just because everyone on the ship (and the Admiralty) knew about Section 31, doesn't mean in was common knowledge.

(Even in the DS9 era the was ample evidence a good number of the TNG era Admiralty knew of the organization too.)

Exactly. I think we are seeing extraordinary circumstances on Discovery, not run of the mill operations.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The U.S.S. Discovery was effectively COMMISSIONED by Section 31 at the start (all the security with the Section 31 black badges);

I completely forgot about that. And I'm pretty sure the season one writers did, too

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I like the concept of Section 31, I just don't like the fact that they were a "Official" organization underneath the purview of StarFleet Intelligence.

I prefer the fact that they are secret organization like SD-6 from Alias or Section 1 from "La Femme Nikita".

 

[fireproof78]

I think they were only "offical" when it suited their operations.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think 31 was common knowledge. Pike treated it as Intelligence.

Pike knew about it. Along with his entire crew, and the crew of the Discovery. That makes it common knowledge. A covert organization, by its very definition, should not be known about by people not in the know.

 

[fireproof78]

Pike knew about it. Along with his entire crew, and the crew of the Discovery. That makes it common knowledge. A covert organization, by its very definition, should not be known about by people not in the know.

What do they know?

 

[Dukhat]

What do they know?

Er, the existence of Section 31.

 

[fireproof78]

Er, the existence of Section 31.

And? It's mere existence is not problematic.

I'm guessing knowledge of it's existence is considered a problem. I don't see it as such in the 23rd century when knowledge can be lost easily, especially in Star Trek.

 

[Dukhat]

And? It's mere existence is not problematic.

It is when no one's ever even heard of the name of the organization in DS9, much less what it's about.

 

[fireproof78]

It is when no one's ever even heard of the name of the organization in DS9, much less what it's about.

Knowledge was lost or classified.