The Lost Era starships thread

[Dukhat]

Hello all,

With the Section 31 movie set to debut early next year, and the info that it takes place in the 2330's, I thought it would be fun to do some starship analysis for the "Lost Years" (basically the period between TUC/beginning of GEN (2293) through the beginning of TNG in the 2360's.) I'm not sure why the 2330's was chosen for this TV movie. I'm assuming there's an in-story reason other than just some random date or using the lure of Rachel Garrett as fanwank to get people to watch (as if Michelle Yeoh wasn't enough of a reason.) And I'm quite skeptical about any Starfleet ships they show looking anything like what I think they should for the era. But we'll see...

Anyway, we all know the design lineage at the start of the Lost Years. They comprise:

TMP Constitution class
Miranda class
Excelsior class (original and refit)
Oberth class
Constellation class
Sydney class

We also got a couple new ships thanks to PIC:

Shangri-La class
Lancelot class (although I refuse to believe that a ship design clearly influenced by the Sovereign class was operating in the 2280's. Rather, I believe that this is a case of 'you're welcome to ignore what you see and pretend it's something else' like what DSC/SNW have instilled in their visual reboot logic.)

We know that the Miranda, Excelsior, Oberth, Constellation and Sydney classes remained in use throughout the entire era and into the TNG timeframe. We only see parts of a Connie in BOBW and a wrecked saucer in DS9's "The Sound of Her Voice," but it's not enough to assume that either of those ships were actual Constitution class vessels. As for the Shangri-La, we obviously never saw any of them on screen because its canon status was just created, and ditto for the Lancelot. So we could assume they were phased out at some point (like the Soyuz class), but who knows.

We also have five ships of dubious construction times but obviously around this period:

Excelsior study model NCC-0220
Excelsior study model NCC-1404
Excelsior study model (no registry)
Planet of Titans study model B-24-CLN
Planet of Titans study model (no registry)

So then we get to the Star Trek Encyclopedia's listing of conjectural classes based on their registry numbers. We have, in chronological order:

Deneva class: NCC-6XXX
Antares class: NCC-10XXX
Apollo class: NCC-11XXX (canon per LCARS display)
Hokule'a class: NCC-19XXX (described as a cruiser in dialogue)
Wambundu class: NCC-20XXX (described as a light cruiser in dialogue)
Surak class: NCC-33XXX
Merced class: NCC-37XXX (canon per LCARS display)
Istanbul class: NCC-38XXX-43XXX
Mediterranean class: NCC-43XXX
Renaissance class: NCC-45XXX (canon per LCARS display)

These registry numbers seem to correspond to anywhere between the early 2300's and the 2350's. After the 2350's, it seems that the newer Galaxy-type family of designs are in service, such as the New Orleans, Springfield, Cheyenne, Challenger, Nebula, Olympic, Freedom and Niagara classes with registries of NCC-5XXXX and above. We can also extrapolate other conjectural classes as being in this newer family of designs:

Yorkshire class: NCC-54XXX
Chimera class: NCC-57XXX
Korolev class: NCC-59XXX
Zodiac class: NCC-61XXX
Rigel class: NCC-62XXX
Sequioa class: NCC-70XXX
Andromeda class: NCC-68XXX-70XXX

So to narrow the time period down to the 2330's, the ships that were probably new ships or older ships still in service during that time would be:

Miranda
Excelsior
Constellation
Oberth
Sydney
Deneva
Antares
Apollo
Hokule'a
Wambundu
Surak
Merced
Istanbul
Mediterranean
Renaissance

There's also the DS9 kitbash ships Centaur (NCC-42043), Curry (NCC-42254) and Raging Queen (NCC-42264) which fall into this category.

And, of course, we have the odd-man out: The Ambassador class. While I am under no illusions that we'll see any of the above ships in Section 31, the fact that they're going out of their way to show Rachel Garrett makes me wonder if we're going to see the Enterprise-C in some form. But that, of course, is wishful thinking.

Have I missed anything?

 

[A Ruffian]

Nope, it seems like you got everything, at least to my extent of knowledge.
The Lost Era is very interesting too…

 

[HotRod]

Hello all,

With the Section 31 movie set to debut early next year, and the info that it takes place in the 2330's, I thought it would be fun to do some starship analysis for the "Lost Years" (basically the period between TUC/beginning of GEN (2293) through the beginning of TNG in the 2360's.) I'm not sure why the 2330's was chosen for this TV movie. I'm assuming there's an in-story reason other than just some random date or using the lure of Rachel Garrett as fanwank to get people to watch (as if Michelle Yeoh wasn't enough of a reason.) And I'm quite skeptical about any Starfleet ships they show looking anything like what I think they should for the era. But we'll see...

Anyway, we all know the design lineage at the start of the Lost Years. They comprise:

TMP Constitution class
Miranda class
Excelsior class (original and refit)
Oberth class
Constellation class
Sydney class

We also got a couple new ships thanks to PIC:

Shangri-La class
Lancelot class (although I refuse to believe that a ship design clearly influenced by the Sovereign class was operating in the 2280's. Rather, I believe that this is a case of 'you're welcome to ignore what you see and pretend it's something else' like what DSC/SNW have instilled in their visual reboot logic.)

We know that the Miranda, Excelsior, Oberth, Constellation and Sydney classes remained in use throughout the entire era and into the TNG timeframe. We only see parts of a Connie in BOBW and a wrecked saucer in DS9's "The Sound of Her Voice," but it's not enough to assume that either of those ships were actual Constitution class vessels. As for the Shangri-La, we obviously never saw any of them on screen because its canon status was just created, and ditto for the Lancelot. So we could assume they were phased out at some point (like the Soyuz class), but who knows.

We also have five ships of dubious construction times but obviously around this period:

Excelsior study model NCC-0220
Excelsior study model NCC-1404
Excelsior study model (no registry)
Planet of Titans study model B-24-CLN
Planet of Titans study model (no registry)

So then we get to the Star Trek Encyclopedia's listing of conjectural classes based on their registry numbers. We have, in chronological order:

Deneva class: NCC-6XXX
Antares class: NCC-10XXX
Apollo class: NCC-11XXX (canon per LCARS display)
Hokule'a class: NCC-19XXX (described as a cruiser in dialogue)
Wambundu class: NCC-20XXX (described as a light cruiser in dialogue)
Surak class: NCC-33XXX
Merced class: NCC-37XXX (canon per LCARS display)
Istanbul class: NCC-38XXX-43XXX
Mediterranean class: NCC-43XXX
Renaissance class: NCC-45XXX (canon per LCARS display)

These registry numbers seem to correspond to anywhere between the early 2300's and the 2350's. After the 2350's, it seems that the newer Galaxy-type family of designs are in service, such as the New Orleans, Springfield, Cheyenne, Challenger, Nebula, Olympic, Freedom and Niagara classes with registries of NCC-5XXXX and above. We can also extrapolate other conjectural classes as being in this newer family of designs:

Yorkshire class: NCC-54XXX
Chimera class: NCC-57XXX
Korolev class: NCC-59XXX
Zodiac class: NCC-61XXX
Rigel class: NCC-62XXX
Sequioa class: NCC-70XXX
Andromeda class: NCC-68XXX-70XXX

So to narrow the time period down to the 2330's, the ships that were probably new ships or older ships still in service during that time would be:

Miranda
Excelsior
Constellation
Oberth
Sydney
Deneva
Antares
Apollo
Hokule'a
Wambundu
Surak
Merced
Istanbul
Mediterranean
Renaissance

There's also the DS9 kitbash ships Centaur (NCC-42043), Curry (NCC-42254) and Raging Queen (NCC-42264) which fall into this category.

And, of course, we have the odd-man out: The Ambassador class. While I am under no illusions that we'll see any of the above ships in Section 31, the fact that they're going out of their way to show Rachel Garrett makes me wonder if we're going to see the Enterprise-C in some form. But that, of course, is wishful thinking.

Have I missed anything?

I actually think the Freedom Class would make an excellent ship to use as a basis for any new design we might see from the lost era.

If we ignore the obvious Galaxy class nacelle, the rest of the ship fits perfectly as a pre-Ambassador class ship, similar to ships like the Cheyenne being a pre-Galaxy class ship, while looking similar to a Galaxy. With the Freedom, the saucer is similar to an Ambassador, but upon closer inspection, is entirely new and a fair bit smaller.

I could easily see other ships in different configurations using this saucer design in the same manner as ships like the Miranda and Constellation using Constitution parts.

 

[Yaroze86]

Forgot the Raven/Arie-class, maybe the California-class in Ambassador style, and Whorfin-class. Other than that, pretty spot on. Really hoping we get at least one new class. Really like to have the Pegasus Ambassador type come into canon or some kind of Ambassador type Miranda-class/Nebula-class. Sad that the only seen ship that's new from that era is the Ambassador-class.

 

[A Ruffian]

Forgot the Raven/Arie-class, maybe the California-class in Ambassador style, and Whorfin-class. Other than that, pretty spot on. Really hoping we get at least one new class. Really like to have the Pegasus Ambassador type come into canon or some kind of Ambassador type Miranda-class/Nebula-class. Sad that the only seen ship that's new from that era is the Ambassador-class.

Huh, I must’ve forgot about the Raven, and the Whorfin class are those 2 ships that get caught in the Nexus in Generations. Well, thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Yaroze86]

Also, the Niagara-class being a sort of Ambassador and Galaxy intermix. I.e.

USS Wellington

NCC-28473

 

[CaptChris42]

I actually think the Freedom Class would make an excellent ship to use as a basis for any new design we might see from the lost era.

If we ignore the obvious Galaxy class nacelle, the rest of the ship fits perfectly as a pre-Ambassador class ship, similar to ships like the Cheyenne being a pre-Galaxy class ship, while looking similar to a Galaxy. With the Freedom, the saucer is similar to an Ambassador, but upon closer inspection, is entirely new and a fair bit smaller.

I could easily see other ships in different configurations using this saucer design in the same manner as ships like the Miranda and Constellation using Constitution parts.

I see the Niagara, and the Freedom (and maybe the Zodiac-class, too?) all somewhat derived from the Ambassador-class line, but also went through a lengthy development, plus refit cycles.

It's likely the Galaxy-derived nacelles got added later, perhaps as part of a field testing initiative and proof of tech concept, before the Galaxy-class launches en-masse.

We know the Niagara has the lowest registry of the bunch, of the observed registries, anyway. The Freedom is much higher, being above 68000 (though if you include the unseen USS Liberator from Wolf 359 as a possible class member, it drops to only a little above 67000)

As for them being pre Ambassador - well, it's possible, but I suspect, unlikely. A little after maybe, I can see quite easily.

The Lancelot-class could have had a similar history, too I guess. Although it's basically an evolved Shen-zhou.

As for many of the rest, I usually see a lot of them as being either Excelsior or Ambassador-derived.

I particularly like the fan design of the Pellucidar-class, from starshipschematic's website - for the Wambundu, for one.

 

[HotRod]

We know the Niagara has the lowest registry of the bunch, of the observed registries, anyway. The Freedom is much higher, being above 68000 (though if you include the unseen USS Liberator from Wolf 359 as a possible class member, it drops to only a little above 67000)

As for them being pre Ambassador - well, it's possible, but I suspect, unlikely. A little after maybe, I can see quite easily.

I don't put much stock in using registry numbers to figure out the age of particular starship designs. Not when we have examples of Excelsiors in the 40000 to 60000 range.

 

[Dukhat]

I could easily see other ships in different configurations using this saucer design in the same manner as ships like the Miranda and Constellation using Constitution parts.

I once speculated that, based on their registry numbers and the fact that the Ambassador class has no known variants, that the following conjectural classes looked like Ambassador-ized versions of this:

Apollo: Miranda/Nebula type variant
Hokule'a: Constellation/Cheyenne variant (four nacelles)
Wambundu: Saladin/Freedom variant (one nacelle)
Antares: Challenger variant (two nacelles above and below)

(At least, I'd rather see that than just more variations of the TMP Constitution class.)

Forgot the Raven/Arie-class, maybe the California-class in Ambassador style, and Whorfin-class. Other than that, pretty spot on. Really hoping we get at least one new class. Really like to have the Pegasus Ambassador type come into canon or some kind of Ambassador type Miranda-class/Nebula-class. Sad that the only seen ship that's new from that era is the Ambassador-class.

The Raven was a civilian vessel, not Starfleet, so I didn't add it to my list. Ditto with the Whorfin class. (There is a USS Whorfin Starfleet vessel, but there's no correlation between it and those civilian transports.)

Also, the Niagara-class being a sort of Ambassador and Galaxy intermix. I.e.

USS Wellington

NCC-28473

While that was more of a snafu in the Encyclopedia, it surprisingly works well here.

I see the Niagara, and the Freedom (and maybe the Zodiac-class, too?) all somewhat derived from the Ambassador-class line, but also went through a lengthy development, plus refit cycles.

It's likely the Galaxy-derived nacelles got added later, perhaps as part of a field testing initiative and proof of tech concept, before the Galaxy-class launches en-masse.

We know the Niagara has the lowest registry of the bunch, of the observed registries, anyway. The Freedom is much higher, being above 68000 (though if you include the unseen USS Liberator from Wolf 359 as a possible class member, it drops to only a little above 67000)

As for them being pre Ambassador - well, it's possible, but I suspect, unlikely. A little after maybe, I can see quite easily.

I mostly agree with that assessment, although there's no design affiliated with the Zodiac class.

The Lancelot-class could have had a similar history, too I guess. Although it's basically an evolved Shen-zhou.

Actually, it's really not. Someone noticed the superficial resemblance to the Walker class and speculated in MA that they were related, when in fact the ship looks far more like a Sovereign.

As for many of the rest, I usually see a lot of them as being either Excelsior or Ambassador-derived.

It's possible that the Curry and Raging Queen types could represent the Istanbul and Mediterranean classes, based on their description as freighters and large transport ships and their closeness in registry numbers to the known class ships, but I know that wasn't the intention when the kitbashers made them.

I don't put much stock in using registry numbers to figure out the age of particular starship designs. Not when we have examples of Excelsiors in the 40000 to 60000 range.

The use of the movie models in TNG created all sorts of issues (even though they didn't have to.) For one thing, Okuda made the Tsiolkovsky's registry NCC-5XXXX because he thought the VFX guys were going to build a new filming model contemporary to the Enterprise-D instead of reusing the Grissom, and those registry numbers stuck for all Oberths. Then someone gave the Brattain a 2XXXX registry as an in-joke, and suddenly all Mirandas were getting 2XXXX and 3XXXX registries despite being old. And as for the Excelsiors, Okuda just randomly decided to bump up the former 2XXX registries to 1XXXX, 3XXXX and 4XXXX for literally no reason whatsoever.

But really, besides all that, I think Okuda, Sternbach, Drexler, etc. did a pretty good job during TNG on with keeping registry numbers chronological and consistent.

 

[Redshirt214]

I suspect the fleet in this era would look pretty much like it did at the end of the Movie era until you hit the 2340s. I suspect that you’d see mostly stock Excelsiors and a few Enterprise-B spec ships like the Lakota handling nearly all the important missions. Miranda’s and Constellation class starships would no doubt have handled the rest of the second line missions.

I personally don’t think of the Centaur as any more of a kitbash than say the Constellation, since it’s sufficiently different from the Excelsior to be a whole new ship with a similar aesthetic.

The Ambassador Class seems the oddball indeed... it doesn’t seem like many were built, I’d hazard a guess and say maybe a dozen in usual Starfleet tradition? They don’t get much screen time and rarely appear in TNG, and almost never during the Dominion War, whereas the Excelsior is still common (and even gets a successor). The post Ambassador, pre Galaxy designs seen at Wolf 359 don’t seem to have been terribly common either. But they do make a great little design lineage for the Galaxy family: development starts with the Springfield & Cheyenne classes, then you get the New Orleans class as a sort of 1/4 scale version of the final products, the Galaxy and Nebula classes.

Oh wait is the Oberth on the list? And whatever class you want to give the Uss Jupp, which is a rather nice kitbash for the DS9 era and clearly a refit of the old Franz Joesph scout/DD. I did rather like they gave her two engines, though.

 

[Redshirt214]

I don’t tend to put much stock in registries, but I’m generally of the opinion that ships can in fact change their registry over time, with my evidence for this being the USS Hood, which is very clearly and consistently depicted as an older Excelsior class ship, and has the registry NCC-2541 during Encounter at Farpoint, and later on is the NCC-42296. It’s a production goof in the show, but I see no reason Starfleet couldn’t have renumbered older ships during this time period as part of a fleet wide renumbering scheme, or something to that effect. Perhaps post-Conspiracy they wanted to make all ships have five digit registrations?

Thus, Hood is launched as NCC-2541, a late production Excelsior alongside her sister Repulse, NCC-2544. Late in her career, she’s renumbered, to 42296. Incidentally I guess this theory also implies that the Lakota had a lower number than 42768 at some point and also that the Repulse should probably also have been renumbered. The upshot of assuming that TNG era Starfleet is on a renumbering spree is that we can imagine the production of Excelsior class ships was merely in the hundreds as compared to the thousands, and it allows contradictory registries to go away for ships that are clearly visually the same ship (thus, the Saratoga stays the same ship from Whale Probe to Wolf 359, just with a new number and a few refits). Production runs of starships also start to be a little more reasonable, too. The downside is that the service life of movie era ships are still ludicrously long... but I can live with that, I think.

 

[publiusr]

This just screams Lost Era

USS Balmung

The USS Balmung (NCC-28964) was a Federation starship of unspecified class in service to Starfleet in the 24th century. It was named after Balmung, the mythical sword from Earth's Norse legends. (SOTL reference: Ships of the Line) Structurally, the Balmung consisted of an Ambassador-class...

memory-beta.fandom.com

 

[Dukhat]

I like the Balmung, but it’s not very original. It’s basically a hodgepodge of the Ent-B and the Ent-C, but with a heck of a lot more fine CGI detail than a physical studio model would have had.

Of course, I’m betting it would still be better than what we’re eventually going to see.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think this is too much of a spoiler, but from what we can see of circa-2330 Rachel Garrett's phaser, it looks like they intentionally made it to resemble the already-outdated TMP/TWOK phaser that they gave Castillo in "Yesterday's Enterprise." This is significant because it implies that someone did their homework and they are trying to create a visual continuity with YE, and that there's a chance they will be showing things like the monster maroon uniforms (possibly the version that Pike wore in SNW) and ships that resemble the Ambassador class. Still wishful thinking, I know, but it's a start.

 

[Ithekro]

A modern take on the Enterprise-C would be nice. But really any of that eras Starfleet ships will do as long as they don't look completely out of place.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I don't think this is too much of a spoiler, but from what we can see of circa-2330 Rachel Garrett's phaser, it looks like they intentionally made it to resemble the already-outdated TMP/TWOK phaser that they gave Castillo in "Yesterday's Enterprise." This is significant because it implies that someone did their homework and they are trying to create a visual continuity with YE, and that there's a chance they will be showing things like the monster maroon uniforms (possibly the version that Pike wore in SNW) and ships that resemble the Ambassador class. Still wishful thinking, I know, but it's a start.

That would be cool but, if they do bring back the MM, I hope really hope they fix the strap alignment. I understand why they did it, but it just looked wrong on Pike.

 

[Andorian]

I've always really liked this concept Andrew Probert did for the Enterprise-D; I have no problem seeing it as an early 24th century Starfleet vessel (maybe with slightly thinner nacelles):

 

[B.J.]

I've always really liked this concept Andrew Probert did for the Enterprise-D; I have no problem seeing it as an early 24th century Starfleet vessel (maybe with slightly thinner nacelles):

I can see why he continued developing the D though. That looks to me more like just a TOS Enterprise that got squished. But you can certainly see the beginnings of the D there.

 

[Dukhat]

A modern take on the Enterprise-C would be nice. But really any of that eras Starfleet ships will do as long as they don't look completely out of place.

I wouldn’t want them to change the Enterprise-C like they changed the TOS Enterprise into the SNW Enterprise. That’s just too much change for change’s sake, and the Ambassador design doesn’t really need any update. But I would still rather have that than see Excelsiors, Mirandas and Oberths again ad nauseum, or ships that would look right at home as one of the First Contact classes.

 

[DSG2k]

Then someone gave the Brattain a 2XXXX registry as an in-joke, and suddenly all Mirandas were getting 2XXXX and 3XXXX registries despite being old. And as for the Excelsiors, Okuda just randomly decided to bump up the former 2XXX registries to 1XXXX, 3XXXX and 4XXXX for literally no reason whatsoever.

But really, besides all that, I think Okuda, Sternbach, Drexler, etc. did a pretty good job during TNG on with keeping registry numbers chronological and consistent.

Agreed on that last part. For older ship classes with higher registry examples, I've noted elsewhere the F-15EX is a great example for this. The US Air Force has basically ordered new builds of a 50 year old aircraft design for front(-ish)-line military use because it's cheaper and easier than a big new design process, the maintenance is standardized, the support tools and jigs are already there, et cetera.

In normal fan logic, this would be baffling. The expectation, knowing the F-22 or F-35 exist, would be to assume more of those would be built, instead.

As for the UFP Starfleet rationale, we know little. A traditional conjecture would be that, besides the Tomed Incident, not much happened to push widescale adoption of advancements in the early 24th Century until the mid-century Tzenkethi and Cardassian wars, what with the Romulans disappearing and the improvements with Klingon relations.

Alternately, given the hideousness of several UFP ship designs (Niagara, Steamrunner, et cetera), maybe early 24th Century designs were just vomitous to behold so they built these for the ugly ones to hide behind in fleet pics.