News Kurtzman: Starfleet Academy Series On The Way

[Mogh]

What version of Old Trek have you watched??? "Breaking" the characters is a reoccurring theme.

Yes, it is, but their behaviour and reaction to is by exception rather than the norm.

It's a bit like saying "there are special effects in TOS, they're a recurring theme". They are, but I think it's safe to say there's been a sea change in those, too.

Or is your contention that characterisation in the Kurtzman era is either no different, or at best a very minor change?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, it is, but their behaviour and reaction to is by exception rather than the norm.

It is the norm because in every episode there is something that challenges at least one character resulting in a behavioral or ideological shift. The exception would be an episode where no one and no idea is challenged.

Or is your contention that characterisation in the Kurtzman era is either no different, or at best a very minor change?

Yes.
The "sea change" is going from episodic to serialized. These writers haven't mastered that.

 

[Mogh]

@Nerys Myk Interesting. Do you think that video of Burnham could matched by another character from the first six shows? Even if you expanded from ten episodes to the entire show's run?

It seems clear evidence of a big style change in character writing; but if you can't see that, I respect your view. IDIC and all that!

 

[Nerys Myk]

@Nerys Myk Interesting. Do you think that video of Burnham could matched by another character from the first six shows? Even if you expanded from ten episodes to the entire show's run?

It seems clear evidence of a big style change in character writing; but if you can't see that, I respect your view. IDIC and all that!

The crying thing? I think you could string together a video of Kirk giving the sad face multiple times. Or the crew laughing at a wah-wah moment. Or Picard's stern lecture face.

 

[Mogh]

The crying thing? I think you could string together a video of Kirk giving the sad face multiple times. Or the crew laughing at a wah-wah moment. Or Picard's stern lecture face.

None of which would be the constant tipping out of despair, over constant end-of-the-world stuff, backed by unending actual violins.

It's a different palette they paint with on these shows: where everyone is on overshare and everything is a tragedy. It's MUCH closer to a soap opera (where human drama and anguish fuelled by conflict is the main currency) than any number of stern lectures from Picard or lighthearted laughs on Kirk's bridge.

 

[Nerys Myk]

None of which would be the constant tipping out of despair, over constant end-of-the-world stuff, backed by unending actual violins.

It's a different palette they paint with on these shows: where everyone is on overshare and everything is a tragedy. It's MUCH closer to a soap opera (where human drama and anguish fuelled by conflict is the main currency) than any number of stern lectures from Picard or lighthearted laughs on Kirk's bridge.

I didn't get that from the show. She cries for the reason most people cry. It's not always tragedy.
Most drama is fueled by conflict. And that conflict often has human drama and anguish at it's core. Great scenes it TOS are built around the veneer being stripped off our characters and the raw emotions being exposed. It's not a "Soap Opera" thing. Soaps get a bad rap anyway, stemming from the fast paced, turn and burn nature of the early days.
Crying is not a bad thing. It's not a sign of weakness. It can be honest and true. Martin-Green is a self-confessed crier. I guess she brings that to the character of Burnham.

 

[Jayson1]

Just like in baseball their is no crying in Starfleet. Everyone gets one cry a year and rest of the time it is looking out of windows sadly or making monologues about how bad their feeling.

 

[Mogh]

Just like in baseball their is no crying in Starfleet. Everyone gets one cry a year and rest of the time it is looking out of windows sadly or making monologues about how bad their feeling.

Now there's the REAL melodrama

 

[fireproof78]

That's right-bury those emotions.

 

[fireproof78]

I didn't get that from the show. She cries for the reason most people cry. It's not always tragedy.
Most drama is fueled by conflict. And that conflict often has human drama and anguish at it's core. Great scenes it TOS are built around the veneer being stripped off our characters and the raw emotions being exposed. It's not a "Soap Opera" thing. Soaps get a bad rap anyway, stemming from the fast paced, turn and burn nature of the early days.
Crying is not a bad thing. It's not a sign of weakness. It can be honest and true. Martin-Green is a self-confessed crier. I guess she brings that to the character of Burnham.

Exactly. It continues to stump me that crying is regarded so poorly that if a person does it then it must be a sign of weakness. It strikes me as very negative view of emotions, emotional expression, and a desire for people to only express those which others are comfortable with.

 

[Jayson1]

Crying like anything in fiction can be good or bad depending on quality of writing. Nobody for example minded Picard crying in "Family" due to guilt over bring Locutus. I think Tilly crying when she was seeing her invisible friend was well done. I think Burnham crying was okay when the robot girl died. Other time it's more interesting to see someone try and suck it up and watch their grief come out in other ways. I love the scene in Ds9 where Odo smashes up his quarters and Quark comes and talks to him but it's not a, let's share out feelings type of conversation yet Quark at the same time is still helping him by talking about how he places bets on him on always being on time. Or even Kirk falling on his butt after David is killed. Crying is kind of the more easy route sometimes to show someone in grief but it's not always the most interesting way to go.

 

[Commander Troi]

I mean, you'd hope that in three and a half centuries, we might actually have whole new tactics in dealing with mental health, just as we do today versus the time of the English Civil War).

Well, yes and no. Sadly, much of the same "stuff it all down and ignore it or self-medicate" is still prevalent now. While it may seem like mental health care is available and accepted everywhere, I can assure you that isn't the case.

I think a lot of the emotional stuff you see is a result of a generational change in the people behind the shows. Gene was my grandparents' age - showing emotion of any kind was a HUGE no-no. But that has loosened, little by little, with successive generations. It's far less frowned upon to show emotions in public, but still pretty awkward for many people.

As always, YMMV.

 

[fireproof78]

Fair point. It's more interesting to me.

 

[Commander Troi]

Crying like anything in fiction can be good or bad depending on quality of writing. Nobody for example minded Picard crying in "Family" due to guilt over bring Locutus. I think Tilly crying when she was seeing her invisible friend was well done. I think Burnham crying was okay when the robot girl died. Other time it's more interesting to see someone try and suck it up and watch their grief come out in other ways. I love the scene in Ds9 where Odo smashes up his quarters and Quark comes and talks to him but it's not a, let's share out feelings type of conversation yet Quark at the same time is still helping him by talking about how he places bets on him on always being on time. Or even Kirk falling on his butt after David is killed. Crying is kind of the more easy route sometimes to show someone in grief but it's not always the most interesting way to go.

Agreed. It has to fit the character as well.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it should fit the character but it also should fit the moment. One of the biggest things I see with people I work with is the fact that they were never taught a healthy way to manage emotions. Burnham is a prime example of that and her crying fits her character. Her emoting is similar to how Kirk would sometimes emote and how Picard would sometimes emote. But, for Burnham it makes sense.

 

[publiusr]

I see this as a way to revisit past events.

In the Star Trek movies thread on TWOKhan plot-holes I wargamed a scenario where, had Kirk raised shields immediately upon hearing static from Reliant, it might have made things worse. Somehow it probably makes more sense if John de Lancie was speaking the words.

I see this as a learning experience…a way to introduce a new audience to old stories, maybe with them flying between Reliant and Enterprise slugging it out and the holodeck safety protocols sabotaged…by…whom?

Don’t be surprised if the big bad is a return of the bugs from Conspiracy wanting new blood and a fresh start. “The Faculty” all over again.

So who’s Deku in this picture?

Troi’s daughter.

Not as psi-adept as her mom, but with enough to tell that something is wrong. Of course, a training flight to the Negative Energy barrier can be her Dark Phoenix moment.

Locarno as the new Boothby…a wiser older figure in the cadets lives puttering about the garden giving advice, the Starfleeters still giving him the cold shoulder.

This series…it writes itself…

 

[Jayson1]

I don't know. She was raised on Vulcan. She doesn't seem to be outgoing or very personable in other areas. Not like Tilly for example who is very open emotionally. I can see Tilly crying a lot but someone who lived on Vulcan I think would be more stoic even when it comes to grief. Plus she is in a command position which means also having the extra responsibility of being strong and projecting strength to instil confidence in people serving under you.

 

[Commander Troi]

I don't know. She was raised on Vulcan. She doesn't seem to be outgoing or very personable in other areas. Not like Tilly for example who is very open emotionally. I can see Tilly crying a lot but someone who lived on Vulcan I think would be more stoic even when it comes to grief. Plus she is in a command position which means also having the extra responsibility of being strong and projecting strength to instil confidence in people serving under you.

I figured Georgiou's death and everything after broke Michael open. She was already an older child when she went to Vulcan, so her base upbringing was human. Phillipa's death brought back all the trauma she'd repressed of losing her parents. YMMV

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Crying is only bad if it comes at the expense of necessary action.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't know. She was raised on Vulcan. She doesn't seem to be outgoing or very personable in other areas. Not like Tilly for example who is very open emotionally. I can see Tilly crying a lot but someone who lived on Vulcan I think would be more stoic even when it comes to grief. Plus she is in a command position which means also having the extra responsibility of being strong and projecting strength to instil confidence in people serving under you.

She was traumatized and then that trauma was buried by the Vulcan way. Not healthy.