Spoilers Star Trek: Picard General Discussion Thread

[jaime]

Yes, the entire synthetic population of the planet was built by Maddox and Soong. They initially only created one pair of synths to look like Data's painting - Jana and Sutra. Maddox later decided to create another set of synths, this time not intended simply to add to the population, but programmed with a very specific purpose for deployment as undercover agents to investigate the cause of the Mars atrocity. To expedite the process, he re-used an existing design, which is why a second pair were created with the same face. Plus, since he went to the trouble of programming Dahj, the Earth-based synth, to seek out Picard in a pinch, he probably chose that particular face again because he knew it would be familiar to Picard.

Honestly, the story holds together a lot better than you seem to think, and the pieces do tie together, if you accept them at face value and make the connections, instead of looking to holes to poke at.

See, I don’t remember much of that being explicit at all. I got the impression, from the early episodes in particular, that Soji and Dahj were literally grown from a piece of Data. (Which would have been nice, and better than a resurrected Data or the Cat in a Box Data we got.)

I don’t look for holes, I just look at the way it hangs together, and sometimes it’s difficult not to notice changes in direction vs things that may be set-ups for later. The interview with Akiva acknowledges that to an extent, and there is something that feels clumsy in the ending (maybe they did plan on pick up shots with a few more of Data’s ‘family’ from the TNG days there. Otherwise you have a mentally compromised Picard making Power of Attorney decisions for a possibly similarly compromised Data.) as a result.

I mean, at one point, I expected some kind of Data remnant (like the one in the box) to be giving Picard his little dreams via the same Borg connection we know from First Contact. Until quite late in the day I expected the artifact to be relaying these little clues. Beyond a vehicle for getting Seven in the story, upping the reference quotient, and upping the horror quotient, I am not actually sure what purpose The Artifact served in the season one story, or if it is intended as part of a longer game, and whether that was it’s original intent. (Picards new body will have no remnant of his assimilation)

 

[jaime]

Quick thought:

The Anti AI league were hunting for this planet a long time... what if it was an older planet where AI had been escaping to for years from various cultures? That was something I also felt was going on (yes, similar to the Body Electric in the novels) and made a kind of sense. Especially in relation to the clumsy (following the events of Measure of a Man) ‘slave race’ stuff with the synths. Again, thematically, the XB being preyed on for their spare parts is something that ties with this, as indeed is the death of the Trois son due to needing essentially a synth blood/organ donor. There’s all these little bits of idea peppered in there that ended up being... wallpaper.
In some respects I thought we were going to be looking at a sort of ‘underground railway’ for synths at one point.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

P-Stew on the panel: The first 4 episodes are "unlike anythng that I've read before for ST. They're extraordinary. The characterization is so intense, the complexity...The unexpected situations."

Similar things were said about the first season too before it aired... and well the first season wasn’t really any of that either.

 

[fireproof78]

Now, those criticisms aren’t about wanting more fan service, just noticing that they accidentally wrote TNG character shaped holes in for some reason.

Honestly, I don't see the holes as others do, but my familiarity with TNG characters is basic at best. To me, those holes are fairly stereotypical, which either speaks poorly of TNG characters or of how fleshed out these characters in Picard ended up being. Because, unfortunately, they did not give enough time to those characters as they could have, in my opinion. Which may give rise to the comparisons that happen between them and TNG. And that's unfortunate, to my mind, because it comes more fuel for fan service arguments.
Now, that said, in my opinion, Picard works best as Picard's focus on his own legacy, and whether or not his devotion to the Federation has been worth it. Data becomes the focal point for that journey, but thematically it is about Picard rediscovering himself, and feeling that integrity for the choices made in his life. And, I know many find it odd, but when struggling with such a challenge people don't always want their best friends with them. It's not rationale but it can happen.

 

[NCC-73515]

Beyond a vehicle for getting Seven in the story, upping the reference quotient, and upping the horror quotient, I am not actually sure what purpose The Artifact served in the season one story, or if it is intended as part of a longer game, and whether that was it’s original intent. (Picards new body will have no remnant of his assimilation)

It was kinda nice to see that there's a new Romulan state now that cooperates with the Federation and captured a cube, but when they built up to the most suspenseful situation, all drones reactivating with Seven as a temporary queen, the drones were immediately discarded in the next scene, and Seven simply disconnected again. I also didn't like the new interior designs. Everything looked cleaner, simplified and nicer, but Borg stuff should look like cables and tubes everywhere.

 

[Campe]

Ones mileage may vary of course, but in a fictional universe, particularly one that is as expansive and wide-reaching as Star Trek, I personally find any use of “should of”’s asking for the series to be stuck at a particular point in time. Should the TMP Klingons looked like the TOS? Should the refit Enterprise look like the classic big E? Should we not allow for recasting of roles of late individuals?

Again, different strokes for different folks. I just find the picking and choosing of the changes that are made not the greatest. I grew up during the Berman era so I do understand that that was how Trek was for so long. And Kurtzman Trek has made some choices I don’t agree with. But I can’t for one second say what “should” be in a universe for anyone except how I want to see it.

Just my $0.02.

 

[NCC-73515]

Sure, there are people who actually disagree that Vulcans should have pointy ears, or that Bolians should be blue, that Romulan ships should have bird shapes, etc. But where's the harm in consistency?

 

[Campe]

You miss the point. Changes have been made before this. And for the most part, pre-Kurtzman, they’ve been accepted fairly well. What has changed? Besides nostalgia.

But honestly your issue could easily be explained away as easily as perhaps the Romulans don’t like clutter and cleaned all the excess cables up or the Borg assimilated fucking Bluetooth since the last time we saw them.

And we’ve only seen a small number of Bolians? Who says there can’t be different colors?

 

[fireproof78]

Ones mileage may vary of course, but in a fictional universe, particularly one that is as expansive and wide-reaching as Star Trek, I personally find any use of “should of”’s asking for the series to be stuck at a particular point in time. Should the TMP Klingons looked like the TOS? Should the refit Enterprise look like the classic big E? Should we not allow for recasting of roles of late individuals?

Again, different strokes for different folks. I just find the picking and choosing of the changes that are made not the greatest. I grew up during the Berman era so I do understand that that was how Trek was for so long. And Kurtzman Trek has made some choices I don’t agree with. But I can’t for one second say what “should” be in a universe for anyone except how I want to see it.

Just my $0.02.

Yeah, should is a word I generally avoid. It frustrates me because it feels like a rubber stamp Trek, while ignoring any other possibility. But, it also seems to be the direction the franchise is headed in so...

 

[jaime]

You miss the point. Changes have been made before this. And for the most part, pre-Kurtzman, they’ve been accepted fairly well. What has changed? Besides nostalgia.

But honestly your issue could easily be explained away as easily as perhaps the Romulans don’t like clutter and cleaned all the excess cables up or the Borg assimilated fucking Bluetooth since the last time we saw them.

And we’ve only seen a small number of Bolians? Who says there can’t be different colors?

I like the idea of the Borg assimilating blue tooth. (Probably to stop away teams phasering all their mesh routers…)

I am not saying ‘should’ of done anything in terms of canon particularly. More about what fit with the story they seemed to be trying to tell, and then reaching out a little beyond that to existing TNG stuff only when the choices seem to be made out of almost an early, deliberate avoidance of going to close (something that went away as they moved along I think) to a nostalgia fest.
If you reveal an Android can be resurrected from a positron in the first act, I’m not sure the version in a back up box in the last act (with an extra body, and the means to make them right there) is really where you want to end up. The phaser is still on the mantelpiece. That’s me talking from a storytelling perspective, not a TNG era fan perspective.
There’s a little too much man behind the curtain showing sometimes. Picard doesn’t want to get his friends involved? Why? Do I believe that in every case? Why then does he end up with a lot of people very very similar to his old crew and not once think ‘hmm, I should have just got the others anyway’ or comment on it when he ends up going to his old friends anyway? When one of those friends literally saves the day, in a story about literally the only old friend with an in universe reason for not being there (on account of being dead) is very much present in the story throughout?
The answer is of course because real world producers didn’t think that would do as well. The reason Data does not return, after a lot of fan-prick-teases, is the same reason the character died in the first place: the actor doesn’t really want that anymore and has got old.
The desire to do something new is something that is in a real interesting balance with how much trouble they went to to bring in the old as well. Hugh didn’t wonder how Geordi was doing? Here’s Bruce… but he’s a different actor now and dead very fast. Three of the returning cameo characters die violently actually. It’s a very mixed bag.

Overall, I loved the show, I just didn’t feel particularly satisfied when we reached the end. I think it’s very much those last few episodes where things get a bit rushed, and a bit wobbly. Season 2 won’t have the spectre of Data hanging over it, so I am curious to see if it’s more coherent without that pressure. Q is harder to get wrong, with De Lancie in place.

 

[NCC-73515]

You miss the point. Changes have been made before this. And for the most part, pre-Kurtzman, they’ve been accepted fairly well. What has changed? Besides nostalgia.

Here's a point you missed:

I also didn't like the new interior designs.

That means IMHO, my personal preference, my highly subjective taste, like everyone else's opinion about designs is subjective and a matter of taste and preference.
Previous changes added more detail. This one removed detail.

But honestly your issue could easily be explained away as easily as perhaps the Romulans don’t like clutter and cleaned all the excess cables up or the Borg assimilated fucking Bluetooth since the last time we saw them.

Sure, the Borg also changed their interiors between TNG and FC, and the new design could be a result of the collective having to completely reboot after Janeway's virus, during which they removed access points that became a vulnerability. All that doesn't mean I have to like removing iconic elements. It's like having the Klingons give up their swords and daggers.

And we’ve only seen a small number of Bolians? Who says there can’t be different colors?

How many does it take, Admiral?

 

[fireproof78]

It's like having the Klingons give up their swords and daggers.

You mean, and behave like an interstellar power with space ships and laser weapons? Weird.

 

[cooleddie74]

They didn't even use swords and daggers in TOS except on rare occasions, and they weren't even their own swords and daggers when they did so.

 

[Nerys Myk]

See, I don’t remember much of that being explicit at all. I got the impression, from the early episodes in particular, that Soji and Dahj were literally grown from a piece of Data. (Which would have been nice, and better than a resurrected Data or the Cat in a Box Data we got.)

All the synths were made using a piece of Data. Jurati describes the technique (fractal neuronic cloning) in "Remembrance".

 

[jaime]

All the synths were made using a piece of Data. Jurati describes the technique (fractal neuronic cloning) in "Remembrance".

Exactly. Which is something that’s lost in the mix by the end. I mean, is the Data in the box literally being enslaved to birth this population? Is Data’s legacy these children of his? Basically, the existence of the Data box causes more problems than it solves. A planet of Data’s children that Picard (and ultimately Riker) must protect works on its own.

 

[keoluperalto]

... so clear something up in convo if you please. The flashback Starfleet uniforms are immediately [after] ST: Nemesis? Though ST: Lower Decks is dated as 2380 or something like that.
Honestly tho I'm digging the 2387 versions as a better successor to Dominion War era threads. I've seen the cartoon cosplay versions of ST: LD on Etsy & it might work for Anime style Star Trek, personally I think it's too bright, I dunno.

midnight musings. lol

 

[keoluperalto]

... so clear something up in convo if you please. The flashback Starfleet uniforms are immediately [after] ST: Nemesis? Though ST: Lower Decks is dated as 2380 or something like that.
Honestly tho I'm digging the 2387 versions as a better successor to Dominion War era threads. I've seen the cartoon cosplay versions of ST: LD on Etsy & it might work for Anime style Star Trek, personally I think it's too bright, I dunno.

midnight musings. lol

... my Kelvin-timeline ST convert of a friend calls it the Raffie uniform, apparently she was the only one wearing that particular Starfleet uniform in the flashbacks. lol

 

[Tuskin38]

... my Kelvin-timeline ST convert of a friend calls it the Raffie uniform, apparently she was the only one wearing that particular Starfleet uniform in the flashbacks. lol

Because she’s not an Admiral. Picard was wearing the admiral variant, Raffi was wearing the everyone else version.

The flashbacks all take place several years after Nemesis/Lower Decks.

Also the TNG movie uniform is still in service during at least 2380.

 

[Campe]

Also as seen in Generations, the Kelvin movies and Disco season 2, and more I’m sure, there is no reason that multiple uniforms can’t be in use at the same time.

 

[cooleddie74]

Hell, in TMP it's now onscreen canon that TOS shuttlecraft were still being used at the time of the first movie so I don't see why different Starfleet uniform designs can't coexist.