Mirror, Mirror notes

[fireproof78]

I mean, Asimov is harder than Star Trek but neither counters as hard scifi by my understanding of the terms.

Regardless, the Mirror Universe is fine part of Star Trek. It fits as well as any other of the long list of silliness in the Trek universe, and is more interesting as character study to boot. If we were to discard less scientific ideas from Star Trek then we might as well give up the whole enterprise...

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

well give up the whole enterprise...

I see what you did there.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

I'm afraid I never liked the Mirror Universe concept as they used it.

In my experience, where I am in life and what I've achieved have always depended on 2 things:
My own character and my luck.

If you change either one, then I would never be where I am, I would not have achieved the things I have, and I would not know the people I do.

If you magically changed me into an evil person and put me in a dystopian universe, I wouldn't be in exactly the same position I'm in. No one would!

So, for the entire crew to be magically switched into evil people in a dystopia without any changes just doesn't make sense. It just seems ludicrous.

Philosophically, it's almost as if it's saying, "Yeah, don't work so hard at doing the right thing. Be Evil and you'll get just as far."

And, then, we're expected to believe that this parallel goes on for... what? A Hundred years of history? I just can't buy it.

To me, it just seems like an exercise in Fan Fic, where somebody didn't like the characters being good guys all the time and wanted to show them being Evil.

Scott Kellogg

 

[Swedish Borg]

Cool. I have never considered Asimov hard scifi in the least myself. I believe his work would fail to meet the criteria set by the official SF writer's association. But I love his work and always found him eminently readable.

Yes, there are a few things in Asimov that can be considered unscientific. His use of telepathy is one of them... Hell, his telepaths can communicate across a galaxy!!! and instantaneously at that! That's weird enough... Plus I mean, interstellar travel without nuclear power... Psychohistory is entertaining enough and the stories around are great but when you stop to think about it., it doesn't make much sense. A lot of things happen in a society that have a determining effect and can't be predicted. Scientific progress is one of them... We know for instance that at some point his generals have tried to kill Hitler (mostly because they thought he was leading them toward an abyss), had they succeeded the fate of millions of people could have been different and that's only one example of a single event that could have radically changed the state of the world.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm always amused by what brand of ludicrous is too far for people. Faster than light travel with mininmal time dilation? Interspecies reproduction with viable offspring? Transporters that can convert you to energy and back again as the same person? A device which can create a viable, breathable, atmosphere in mere moments? All totally acceptable.

A quantum reality where events are mirrored as evil from our own?

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Sorry, were you thinking that I was defending Star Trek's science?

 

[Swedish Borg]

I'm always amused by what brand of ludicrous is too far for people. Faster than light travel with mininmal time dilation? Interspecies reproduction with viable offspring? Transporters that can convert you to energy and back again as the same person? A device which can create a viable, breathable, atmosphere in mere moments? All totally acceptable.

A quantum reality where events are mirrored as evil from our own?

Yes, all of this is silly enough. Even FTL is highly dubious IMO but without it, the stories would be very limited...

Take terraformation for example. Even if we had the resources necessary to do it and had a planet close enough to Earth's conditions, it would still take hundreds of thousands of years to yield results.

Think about it, a few decades is enough to make a planet uninhabitable but you need thousands of times that duration to make it habitable again.

In the real world, it's a lot easier to break things than to repair them.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry, were you thinking that I was defending Star Trek's science?

No, just amused by where the line of believability is for different viewers and what branches in to ludicrous territory.

Yes, all of this is silly enough. Even FTL is highly dubious IMO but without it, the stories would be very limited...

Which is why the Mirror Universe is so interesting. It is just speculation, a "What if?" to explore stories and characters.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Well, look at it this way: We know, going in, that Star Trek's science and technology is... on the iffy side at best.
So, here's where things blow suspension of disbelief for me:

But, as we know in the real world, science and technology follow pretty well defined or decipherable rules.
Calculators don't suddenly stand up, and start organizing a musical version of Hamlet.

Now, the thing is: Human beings follow their own set of pretty well defined or decipherable rules.
(It may take some folks a while to figure them out, but they're there, and they are real.)

But, when the writers decide that the human(oid) characters are not going to act like human beings, or go completely out of character because the writers want them to, or someone claims that human beings are "Perfect" now.
Well, that's when I usually says "That's not handwaving science. That's not an exotic cultural difference.
That's just bad writing."

Scott Kellogg

 

[fireproof78]

Well, look at it this way: We know, going in, that Star Trek's science and technology is... on the iffy side at best.
So, here's where things blow suspension of disbelief for me:

But, as we know in the real world, science and technology follow pretty well defined or decipherable rules.
Calculators don't suddenly stand up, and start organizing a musical version of Hamlet.

Now, the thing is: Human beings follow their own set of pretty well defined or decipherable rules.
(It may take some folks a while to figure them out, but they're there, and they are real.)

But, when the writers decide that the human(oid) characters are not going to act like human beings, or go completely out of character because the writers want them to, or someone claims that human beings are "Perfect" now.
Well, that's when I usually says "That's not handwaving science. That's not an exotic cultural difference.
That's just bad writing."

Scott Kellogg

Ok then. I have no idea how that answers my comment but it was interesting none-the-less.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Well, then try thinking of it this way:
It blows my suspension of disbelief when I imagine the writers had a conversation like this:

Writer one: "Okay, we've got this tremendously intellectual, logical character."
Writer two: "Yeah? You mean that pointy eared guy?"
Writer one: "Yeah. That's the one. He's boring. Let's get the guy drunk or horny or something."
Writer two: "Yeah Count me in! Logic and intellectual stuff are boring! Let's have him do something outrageously dumb!"
Writer one: "Like what?"
Writer two: "I dunno, he gets hit with some super alcohol, or a plant with alien spores takes over his brain, or he's like a cat in heat, or he travels in time to back before he was a stuckup prig! Maybe he starts a mutiny or tries to kill his friends!"

Sounds like a lot of episodes, doesn't it?

Scott Kellogg

 

[fireproof78]

Well, then try thinking of it this way:
It blows my suspension of disbelief when I imagine the writers had a conversation like this:

Writer one: "Okay, we've got this tremendously intellectual, logical character."
Writer two: "Yeah? You mean that pointy eared guy?"
Writer one: "Yeah. That's the one. He's boring. Let's get the guy drunk or horny or something."
Writer two: "Yeah Count me in! Logic and intellectual stuff are boring! Let's have him do something outrageously dumb!"
Writer one: "Like what?"
Writer two: "I dunno, he gets hit with some super alcohol, or a plant with alien spores takes over his brain, or he's like a cat in heat, or he travels in time to back before he was a stuckup prig! Maybe he starts a mutiny or tries to kill his friends!"

Sounds like a lot of episodes, doesn't it?

Scott Kellogg

It does. Ones I usually enjoy.

Fascinating.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I'm afraid I never liked the Mirror Universe concept as they used it.

In my experience, where I am in life and what I've achieved have always depended on 2 things:
My own character and my luck.

If you change either one, then I would never be where I am, I would not have achieved the things I have, and I would not know the people I do.

If you magically changed me into an evil person and put me in a dystopian universe, I wouldn't be in exactly the same position I'm in. No one would!

So, for the entire crew to be magically switched into evil people in a dystopia without any changes just doesn't make sense. It just seems ludicrous.

Philosophically, it's almost as if it's saying, "Yeah, don't work so hard at doing the right thing. Be Evil and you'll get just as far."

And, then, we're expected to believe that this parallel goes on for... what? A Hundred years of history? I just can't buy it.

To me, it just seems like an exercise in Fan Fic, where somebody didn't like the characters being good guys all the time and wanted to show them being Evil.

I agree, which is why my thinking for "Mirror, Mirror" goes along these lines:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/mirror-mirror-notes.307618/page-2#post-13742987

 

[The Old Mixer]

I never had an issue with it. Parallel universes that are mostly extremely similar but with some dramatic differences are pretty old hat in superhero comics.

If one has to come up with a pseudo-scientific rationale, there are infinite possible universes, which could very well include something like the mirror universe...and the extreme similarity but oppositeness of these two universes might connect them more closely than most.

 

[BK613]

^^ I've used the analogy of a color wheel in the past, where similar colors are "closer together" than dissimilar colors and it requires less effort to reach those similar colors. So when the barriers between universes break down, like TNG's Parallels, you get a bunch of similar universes popping through.

Edit to add: IOW, maybe people shouldn't assume that some form of randomization should be in play in crossing over to another reality.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

Well, then try thinking of it this way:
It blows my suspension of disbelief when I imagine the writers had a conversation like this:

Writer one: "Okay, we've got this tremendously intellectual, logical character."
Writer two: "Yeah? You mean that pointy eared guy?"
Writer one: "Yeah. That's the one. He's boring. Let's get the guy drunk or horny or something."
Writer two: "Yeah Count me in! Logic and intellectual stuff are boring! Let's have him do something outrageously dumb!"
Writer one: "Like what?"
Writer two: "I dunno, he gets hit with some super alcohol, or a plant with alien spores takes over his brain, or he's like a cat in heat, or he travels in time to back before he was a stuckup prig! Maybe he starts a mutiny or tries to kill his friends!"

Sounds like a lot of episodes, doesn't it?

Scott Kellogg

I am not even sure that "This Side of Paradise", "Amok Time", and "All Our Yesterdays" counts as a lot.

MAYBE you could throw in "Is There In Truth No Beauty" and "Operation: Annihilate" - well only 5 minutes worth of each,

but I would disagree - nonetheless - 5 out of 79 does not count as a "lot of episodes" to me. Cheers.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

I am not even sure that "This Side of Paradise", "Amok Time", and "All Our Yesterdays" counts as a lot.

MAYBE you could throw in "Is There In Truth No Beauty" and "Operation: Annihilate" - well only 5 minutes worth of each,

but I would disagree - nonetheless - 5 out of 79 does not count as a "lot of episodes" to me. Cheers.

You're forgetting "Naked Time" and "Journey to Babel" "The Way to Eden" "Plato's Stepchildren" and other times they deliberately got Mr. Spock or other vulcans to act out of character. Let's see, 9/79? That's more than 11%. 11% may not be a lot, but it's sure noticeable.

How many other characters did they come up with contrived circumstances to get them out of character? Kirk, in "The Enemy within" and "The Enterprise Incident." Way less than 11%.

Cheers.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Silly me. I forgot to list "Mirror Mirror" itself. 10/79.

Scott Kellogg

 

[Henoch]

Don't forget smirky Spock possessed by ... me. (Return To Tomorrow)

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

You're forgetting "Naked Time" and "Journey to Babel" "The Way to Eden" "Plato's Stepchildren" and other times they deliberately got Mr. Spock or other vulcans to act out of character. Let's see, 9/79? That's more than 11%. 11% may not be a lot, but it's sure noticeable.

How many other characters did they come up with contrived circumstances to get them out of character? Kirk, in "The Enemy within" and "The Enterprise Incident." Way less than 11%.

Cheers.

Nope. I forgot "Naked Time" and "Plato's Stepchildren" (in my defense, I wanted to forget Plato's lol)

No way does "Babel" and "Way to Eden" count as "out of character" moments. Those were PROOF he is not always logical and does have a human side - and they did not resort to machinations to bring it out. It came naturally.

And your Kirk examples fail for the same reason. He was not out of character in the goofy "Enterprise Incident" nor out of character in the excellent "Enemy Within".

So, yeah, 7/79 is not a lot. Cheers back at ya! haha