Mirror, Mirror notes

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by ZapBrannigan, Mar 28, 2021.

  1. Yistaan

    Yistaan Commodore Commodore

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    The whole situation with Mirror Vulcans and Mirror Spock becomes more interesting considering (minor spoilers for Season 1 of Discovery)
    Mirror Sarek, who we can presume is Mirror Spock's father, was a leading member of a rebellion against the Terran Empire that Mirror Spock is a part of.

    In fact, since Enterprise clarified that Vulcans were slaves under the Terran Empire, the circumstances of Spock's conception may have been very different in the Mirror Universe (i.e. Mirror Amanda possibly enslaving Mirror Sarek and then taking advantage of him when his Pon Farr came around, or something unfortunate like that)
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    @Yistaan, it could also be that...

    MU Amanda was also a member of the Rebellion
     
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  3. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    And that Spock joining Starfleet in this universe was a consequence of his adversarial relationship with his father. When he was younger he may have considered the rebellion a lost cause and illogical to pursue. However after a few years in the service of the Empire, and presented with the opportunity of the Tantalus Field (and remember that Spock was aware of the fact Captain Kirk's enemies would often just disappear); so given a device with an ability like that, the possibility of a rebellion succeeding became a reasonable possibility to him. He didn't like the Empire but as he said, "A man must also have the power..."; And the ability to use the Tantalus Field, and command of the Enterprise may have been such power as Spock saw it.
     
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  4. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm sure the idea existed and was used multiple times throughout cinema and fiction history, but this was probably a "what if" sort of thing. "What if Kirk and his landing party wound up in an evil version of their reality?" It's not the basic premise that's as important as the execution (so to speak).

    This episode really does hold up VERY well on repeated viewings. Star Trek was firing on all cylinders at this point in the run. So many classics in a short time. If I wanna have a classic Trek second season trifecta, I'd run "Amok Time," "Mirror, Mirror" and "The Doomsday Machine."

    Deep Space Nine made a habit of remaking movie plots. "Hey let's do Casablanca with Quark as Rick! Let's do The Alamo! Let's do The Defiant Ones!"
     
  5. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    The one thing that confused me at the end was Kirk suddenly saying to Spock: "How long until the Halkan's prediction of Galactic revolt is realized?..."; because even in the 100% uncut version, that's the FIRST TIME such a prediction is mentioned in the episode itself. Kirk is never shown looking at, hearing, or reading anything in that Universe regarding the Halkins - and I seriously doubt the PU Halkin Council mentioned any such prediction - so yeah, WHERE did PU Kirk manage to suddenly 'dig up' that particular Halkin prediction?

    Was something relating to that filmed and edited out? Or was it some sort of holdover 'artifact' from an earlier script draft (IE PU Kirk discovering the Halkins made and informed MU Kirk of said prediction) <--- And the 'Kirk discovery' of the prediction was removed, but the Transporter room mention of it was left in the final draft.
     
  6. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Commodore Premium Member

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    Good catch. I've always wondered about this too. I figure that Tharn (who is the same in both universes, interestingly) made a comment about it during the awesome "IT IS USELESS TO RESIST US!!" exchange, which was deleted, but the transporter room follow-up remained.
     
  7. alchemist

    alchemist Captain Captain

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    Part of the viewing screen conversation that Tharn had with Kirk was cut from Act I. Here is the deleted part -- along with some framing dialogue for reference -- from the final draft script (July 17, 1967):
     
  8. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    “Hey, let’s do The Enemy Below with Kirk as the destroyer commander!”
     
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  9. Yistaan

    Yistaan Commodore Commodore

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    At least Trek had the decency to wait until Enterprise to remake Seven Samurai (Marauders). At least TOS didn't do a Lord of the Rings remake (the books were already popular at the time of TOS' airing, look no further than Nimoy's infamous Bilbo Baggins ballad).

    Kirk: Bones, Spock and I have to get this Klingon dagger to the Volcano of Kri'stak on the Klingon homeworld, the only place it can be destroyed.

    McCoy: One does not simply beam into Qo'nos.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  10. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Captain Red Shirt

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    However, Star Trek got into the habit of plagiarizing itself.

    The plots of "Exile" and "Doctor's Orders" for example are almost identical to those of "Alter Ego" and "One".
     
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  11. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I did a mashup of the Crime Syndicate and the Mirror Universe crew a number of years ago:

    https://www.deviantart.com/johntrum...rek-comic-book-Evil-Universe-mashup-314225406
    I'm glad that someone else here recognizes that there's a difference.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Magnificent_Ferengi_(episode)
     
  12. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    Those are frankly dumb examples.
     
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  13. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Captain Red Shirt

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    I think the MU episodes would have been better if the writers had embraced the absurdity of it all and made them in the form of parodies.
     
  14. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Commodore Premium Member

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    That pretty much happened later.
     
  15. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Somewhere, pssibly in athread about "The Alternative Factor" I discussed the timing of several LOst in Space and Str Trek episodes.

    Lost in Space: "The Magic Mirror" Feb. 16, 1966.

    Star Trek: "The Alternative Factor" March 30, 1967. 54 years and one day ago.

    Star Trek: "Mirror, Mirror" October 6, 1967.

    Lost in Space: "The Anti-Matter Man" Decemter 27, 1967.

    And possibly others that I forget at the moment.
     
  16. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    I think Mirror Mirror us a great fun episode with many great scenes.
    However the beaming into each others clothes - can't really get over it. And what are the odds in the Mirror universe they would have the same bridge crew.
    And it seems very sexist - Captain's woman. However Uhura doesn't seem to be anyone's woman. So it may not be as bad as the ENT version in that regard.
    I love the fight scene with Spock taking on everyone and nearly winning. Kirk and Spock's guards. Lots of great stuff.
    If I were to change anything I would not have them beam into each other clothes. And Kirk's outfit would have been a little bit less metallic gold.
     
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  17. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Captain Red Shirt

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    I don't think it's beaming into each other's clothes, I think it's only the minds that are exchanged, which makes the subsequent uses of the Mirror Universe plot a bit inconsistent. I think if Spock was among the people switching universes he would have grown a beard.
     
  18. Methuselah Flint

    Methuselah Flint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's an interesting way of looking at it, and the best that fits the episode and the beaming etc.

    Like you say, it's not consistent with later examples, but then again, here by a fluke chance (possibly because of the ion storm), the counterparts were directly transposed and displaced. DS9 onwards had people transporting to either universe, rather than actually directly transposing into their alternate self. That's probably the best explanation we can get.

    Presumably if either side had not transported at the right moment to return to their correct bodies, then something would then go wrong.

    I think the return transporting must've been timed somehow, for our Spock to be able to transport the mirror counterparts back at the exact same time. Perhaps he figured our Kirk would leave it until the last second, to be sure. Then again, he says "I assume they returned to their Enterprise at the same time you appeared here." suggesting he may have just waited, and not carried out any beaming. The dialogue leaves it, perhaps, deliberately vague.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2021
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Not very high. But as a TV show using the same actors is cheaper.
    Visual shorthand to show they aren't in Kansas anymore.
    How is the ENT version more sexist?
     
  20. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's a good idea, and I don't deduct points for contradicting the spinoffs. But regarding the mechanics of the MU exchange, I think everybody is missing the mark. Notice (as implied above) that in a world where everybody behaves differently and follows different rules, the same individuals would not meet and marry, and the same children would not be conceived and born, to say nothing of grow up to have matching careers aboard the Enterprise.

    I believe the only way "Mirror, Mirror" can work is if the magnetic storm, combined with the transporter beam, actually created the mirror universe in that instant. And it doesn't have to be a whole universe (that takes a lot of energy), it just has to be the Halkins and the Enterprise, while the distant stars they see are just instantly-created light reaching them, not from actual MU stars. There's only this bubble in another dimension, not a whole universe.

    The MU is like a damaged, imperfect photocopy: flashed into existence, and bearing too strong a resemblance to the real universe it was struck from, to be anything but a copy. That's why the same individuals exist, and why they were beaming up at the same instant, and either fit into each other's clothes or traded their minds. They couldn't not fit.

    This also means that when the "doorway" is closing between the two universes, that's that countdown for the MU to vanish from existence completely. It can't be permanent because it's just a fragment, a bubble, that was copied into being by a magnetic storm. The evil characters' heads are full of instantly-created "memories," but none of their prior lives really happened.

    The spinoff series get it wrong completely, daring to suggest that wildly different events in the MU 23rd century would somehow lead parents to conceive and raise persons who perfectly match the spinoff prime-universe characters in the 24th century. That goes beyond "anything can happen" sci-fi (Gary Mitchell, Trelane), and into the realm of self-contradictory nonsense. In my view.
     
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