Spoilers Things that grind my gears about S3

[UssGlenn]

It's been pretty well established in canon after TOS that Starfleet is not a military organization.

Even if you want to argue that Starfleet doesn't consider themselves military by the TNG era, Discovery takes place before TOS, Thus Kirk's statement has not been contradicted or retconned. Archer's statements are about Earth's Starfleet. We have no evidence that those "not military" ideas would be transferred to the Early Federation Starfleet. And since the MACO's were explicitly military, and absorbed into the Federation Starfleet we have reason to believe that the Early Federation Starfleet was explicitly a military organization.

 

[jackoverfull]

The Viridian was a capital ship of the Emerald Chain's military which attacked and captured a crucial Federation military asset, then used said asset to lead an attack on the Federation HQ itself. The operation was led by a senior member of their government who presented terms of an armistice to the Federation, which at the very least implies that her actions were sanctioned by her government. Unless the Chain denounced Osyraa as a rogue actor, then she attacked the Federation with her government's blessing. It was an act of war, and the Chain and the Federation were de facto at war with each other the moment she opened fire on Discovery. Wars don't need to be declared to be fought

even if I accepted this (I don’t), so much for moral superiority and peaceful resolutions.

Did they? We know nothing of the Emerald Chain's fate

they mention it very quickly at the end. Very easy to miss.

It posed an immediate danger to Disco and its crew, making it a legitimate target to them.

no it wasn’t: they could jump away any moment.

 

[jackoverfull]

Even if you want to argue that Starfleet doesn't consider themselves military by the TNG era, Discovery takes place before TOS, Thus Kirk's statement has not been contradicted or retconned. Archer's statements are about Earth's Starfleet. We have no evidence that those "not military" ideas would be transferred to the Early Federation Starfleet. And since the MACO's were explicitly military, and absorbed into the Federation Starfleet we have reason to believe that the Early Federation Starfleet was explicitly a military organization.

except that in Beyond we find out that some MACOs were unhappy exactly because starfleet was not a military organization - and this happened before the timeline split, so it happens to both universes.

And discovery season 3 doesn’t happen before TOS.

 

[SJGardner]

The Viridian was actively firing anti-proton beams at them before they jumped though. A military vessel firing at you is a legitimate target, no matter how you put it. If a peaceful resolution takes precedence over everything else, then by the same reasoning, the Federation had no right fighting a war against the Klingons or the Dominion. They should've avoided the unnecessary deaths and just surrendered.

 

[UssGlenn]

no it wasn’t: they could jump away any moment.

Not without Stammets. They had a theory that they could jump with Book, but they didn't know it would work. Which is even more reason giving themselves a ticking clock was stupid.

 

[SJGardner]

Not without Stammets. They had a theory that they could jump with Book, but they didn't know it would work. Which is even more reason giving themselves a ticking clock was stupid.

Exactly. Far too many people seem to overlook the fact that if Book failed, then the Viridian would've shorn off their shields in a few minutes and recaptured the ship with ease, considering they only had the bridge crew on board.

 

[jackoverfull]

The Viridian was actively firing anti-proton beams at them before they jumped though. A military vessel firing at you is a legitimate target, no matter how you put it. If a peaceful resolution takes precedence over everything else, then by the same reasoning, the Federation had no right fighting a war against the Klingons or the Dominion. They should've avoided the unnecessary deaths and just surrendered.

they fought defensive wars, they didn’t attack running ships for no reason.

Not without Stammets. They had a theory that they could jump with Book, but they didn't know it would work. Which is even more reason giving themselves a ticking clock was stupid.

precisely.
they came up with blowing up the warp core when they thought they had no escape (valid self-sacrificing last resort action) and then...just left it in with no reason?!

 

[fireproof78]

It posed an immediate danger to Disco and its crew, making it a legitimate target to them.

Not just a danger to Discovery but also to the Federation HQ which they now had access too. The Chain had not had access to that before. So, even if Discovery jumps away, they basically leave the rest of HQ in a hostage situation for a leader of the Chain to step up and say "Hey, give us Discovery or we blow this HQ all to hell."

they came up with blowing up the warp core when they thought they had no escape (valid self-sacrificing last resort action) and then...just left it in with no reason?!

That if they couldn't jump away then their destruction was preferable to capture.

 

[jackoverfull]

Exactly. Far too many people seem to overlook the fact that if Book failed, then the Viridian would've shorn off their shields in a few minutes and recaptured the ship with ease, considering they only had the bridge crew on board.

michael: “book, jump!”
Book: “ops, sorry, I made a mistake...but I think I can try again in a moment and get it right”

BOOOM

Great idea to give yourself a clock for no reason when your life depends on an untried navigator.

 

[jackoverfull]

Not just a danger to Discovery but also to the Federation HQ which they now had access too. The Chain had not had access to that before. So, even if Discovery jumps away, they basically leave the rest of HQ in a hostage situation for a leader of the Chain to step up and say "Hey, give us Discovery or we blow this HQ all to hell."

just move HQs? What’s the point of having it be a giant ship if it’s static?

 

[fireproof78]

just move HQs? What’s the point of having it be a giant ship if it’s static?

The HQ's survival depended on it being hidden. It's revelation wasn't just location but also how it was secured.

 

[nic3636]

So they should assume that no one else would try to attack them when they had just been attacked under a false flag of truce? This is basically being mad at the characters for not knowing they are in a fictional story!

I'm saying that if Starfleet had a proper intelligence file on the Chain (which I assume they did), they should have at least had an idea that once Ossyra was dead the Chain might not be a threat anymore and that destorying that ship was unnecessary.

The Viridian was actively firing anti-proton beams at them before they jumped though. A military vessel firing at you is a legitimate target, no matter how you put it. If a peaceful resolution takes precedence over everything else, then by the same reasoning, the Federation had no right fighting a war against the Klingons or the Dominion. They should've avoided the unnecessary deaths and just surrendered.

A military vessel firing at you is not always a legitimate target, particularly if it doesn't pose an actual threat. In this case, with the Discovery able to jump away, the NiVar fleet between the enemy ship and Federation HQ, there being no evidence that the ship was going to turn around and try to attack Federation HQ, and the leader of the other side dead, it's pretty safe to say that it posed no threat at that moment in time.

 

[SJGardner]

they fought defensive wars, they didn’t attack running ships for no reason.

But the ship wasn't retreating under a metaphorical white flag, it was escorting a captured Federation asset to their own territory, which is why Starfleet and the Ni'Varians were actively engaging it in combat.

 

[The Wormhole]

just move HQs? What’s the point of having it be a giant ship if it’s static?

'Kay, but if Disco jumped out of the Viridian without destroying it, there's nothing stopping the Viridian from turning around and attacking HQ before they have a chance to relocate.

I'm saying that if Starfleet had a proper intelligence file on the Chain (which I assume they did), they should have at least had an idea that once Ossyra was dead the Chain might not be a threat anymore and that destorying that ship was unnecessary.

Not really. Even with Osyrra dead, someone else could take command of the ship, probably whoever was next in line after her and continue to pose a threat. With both her and the ship gone, there is no more threat.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm saying that if Starfleet had a proper intelligence file on the Chain (which I assume they did), they should have at least had an idea that once Ossyra was dead the Chain might not be a threat anymore and that destorying that ship was unnecessary.

Even if that were so, that was not the impression Ossyra had given Vance in their meeting. So, they operate with the best information they had at the time. Which was an enemy force had captured a valuable Federation asset and posed an immediate threat to the surrounding ships and information that puts Starfleet HQ at risk as well. Even with a proper intelligence file the data points have completely shifted.

 

[jackoverfull]

The HQ's survival depended on it being hidden. It's revelation wasn't just location but also how it was secured.

right: it was defended with a totally ineffective energy shield that’s easily pierced by a single ship and by a fleet of ships that couldn’t make a dent in the shields of a 900 year old vessel.

The main defense was it being hidden, I’d say!

But the ship wasn't retreating under a metaphorical white flag, it was escorting a captured Federation asset to their own territory, which is why Starfleet and the Ni'Varians were actively engaging it in combat.

when the core blow up they weren’t escorting anything.

 

[SJGardner]

A military vessel firing at you is not always a legitimate target, particularly if it doesn't pose an actual threat. In this case, with the Discovery able to jump away, the NiVar fleet between the enemy ship and Federation HQ, there being no evidence that the ship was going to turn around and try to attack Federation HQ, and the leader of the other side dead, it's pretty safe to say that it posed no threat at that moment in time.

The episode make it pretty clear that they were unsure that they could jump away without Stamets. It was either a successful jump with Book, or a de facto self-destruction while taking the enemy flagship with themselves. To deny the Chain the use of a crucial Federation military asset and to destroy an enemy vessel already engaged in active combat with both Discovery and their pursuers. What should've they done if Book failed? Say "oops, we failed" and let the Chain retake their prize?

 

[jackoverfull]

Kay, but if Disco jumped out of the Viridian without destroying it, there's nothing stopping the Viridian from turning around and attacking HQ before they have a chance to relocate.

are we forgetting two huge fleets?

 

[jackoverfull]

The episode make it pretty clear that they were unsure that they could jump away without Stamets. It was either a successful jump with Book, or a de facto self-destruction while taking the enemy flagship with themselves. To deny the Chain the use of a crucial Federation military asset and to destroy an enemy vessel already engaged in active combat with both Discovery and their pursuers.

maybe try before blowing up everything - possibly yourself included?

 

[fireproof78]

right: it was defended with a totally ineffective energy shield that’s easily pierced by a single ship and by a fleet of ships that couldn’t make a dent in the shields of a 900 year old vessel.

The main defense was it being hidden, I’d say!

I would say it was, but now how it was hidden was known opens up greater risk.

The episode make it pretty clear that they were unsure that they could jump away without Stamets. It was either a successful jump with Book, or a de facto self-destruction while taking the enemy flagship with themselves. To deny the Chain the use of a crucial Federation military asset and to destroy an enemy vessel already engaged in active combat with both Discovery and their pursuers. What should've they done if Book failed? Say "oops, we failed" and let the Chain retake their prize?

Exactly so.