Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x12 - "There Is A Tide…"

[Discofan]

Yeah. As I've said before, modern studies have shown that people given double-blind taste tests will say whichever wine they are told is more expensive will taste better. Or people given double-blind taste tests with real and veggie sausages will say the real one tastes better (hopefully the test was done with no vegetarians).

It's all psychology.

Indeed, a friend of mine invited a couple of foreigners to a fine restaurant once and they really liked what they ate there, that is until my friend not realizing that he shouldn't have said anything, told them that some of it was snails and frog legs. The two foreigners who were so happy a second before, looked like they were going to throw up...

 

[Ghel]

And, what I'm saying is that the Federation's response was utterly predictable. She had a bad plan. Start negotiations by hijacking a Federation ship and then expecting to negotiate in good faith.

I just don't buy into the idea that someone like Ossyra who can effectively run a crime syndicate would be so naïve.

I wondered about this too. However, Ossyra's plan may not have necessarily been as optimistic or naive as it seems. Although the lie detector did confirm that what she was saying was true, she could easily have a plan that she wasn't stating. For this reason, I was waiting for an ulterior motive to be revealed. I can't help but think that she was playing a larger game than simply "gee, lets join forces now..." My guess would be she was more likely attempting to get the Federation to simply crack the door for her to get programs or agents inside the organization. Maybe I'm too suspicious, but I would even be suspicious of the "treaty" she is telling the Admiral to send to the Federation president for review. "Trust me, even if you ultimately decline the proposal, the President will want to see this. Just transfer it to his computer. There's no malware attached to this. . . REALLY!!!"

 

[Mr. Adventure]

According to the actress who plays Osyraa (Janet Kidder), she was aiming for a so-called Mid-Atlantic accent, which is an accent that combines American and British accents. The Mid-Atlantic accent is a real accent, but a cultivated one (meaning that nobody is born speaking it, but rather they are trained to speak it). It used to be very common in early cinema, and also encouraged in certain boarding schools.

For an example of this accent elsewhere in television, the characters Frasier and Niles Crane, in the TV show "Frasier", use the accent as well.

I went through a spell where I was watching a bunch of old episodes of What's My Line? and To Tell the Truth? from the early day of television on Youtube where you would hear it a lot from erudite guests and panels.

 

[Noname Given]

Actually it was, the ship was the USS Glenn.

But I thought the Glen was only able to do what it did because it managed to somehow use the tardigrade directly as the navigator? And that's also why the Tardigrade was the only thing to survive the Glen's mishap.

And, what I'm saying is that the Federation's response was utterly predictable. She had a bad plan. Start negotiations by hijacking a Federation ship and then expecting to negotiate in good faith.

I just don't buy into the idea that someone like Ossyra who can effectively run a crime syndicate would be so naïve.

Well remember the other reason she's entering into negotiations with the Federation is because the Emerald Chain is comparatively and woefully short of dilithium supplies. She knows that once the dilithium runs out, The chains ability to project its power is gone. She didn't enter into negotiations just because she thought it was time to - she had an underlying and very desperate reason.

 

[Fateor]

You do remember what happened to the Glenn because of its navigation system, right?

Yes, the navigation system who's problem was... Not enough processing power...

If only they were 900 years in the future where computer power had advanced exponentially to the point where FTL processors were a thing...

Oh... Wait... They are...

But then under there own already established rules, all they should need to do is build a copy of Discovery's hull with a modern 32nd century computer core...

 

[Cyrus]

Not as good as last week but pretty good and sets up a potentially great season finale.

Disappointing not to see the continuation of Holodec/child/Burn story thread, but with Wilson Cruz not being in the opening credits I expected that.

now we know why using transwarp conduits are dangerous. A lot of debris there.

good to see Ken Mitchel again. He was really good.

The shit apple stuff was funny.

3rd season continues to be the best season.

 

[Fateor]

Now we know why using transwarp conduits are dangerous. A lot of debris there.

Mind you, it's also an utterly stupid reason since they could just clear out the conduits to make them usable again.

 

[Seven of Five]

I was thoroughly entertained, so another 8.

I'm not totally sure how I feel about the end with the sphere data now living in the little robot things. I did think they were kind of cute though and loved that they had a colour from each department on each of them.

I haven't totally bought into Osyraa as a villain this season. When she reappeared last week, I groaned. In this episode though, I think I've been won over. It may have been her going toe to toe in negotiations with Admiral Vance, the seasons' sleeper hit. She's just dastardly and really rocks the whole Wicked Witch vibe.

 

[Ghel]

Yes, the navigation system who's problem was... Not enough processing power...

If only they were 900 years in the future where computer power had advanced exponentially to the point where FTL processors were a thing...

Oh... Wait... They are...

But then under there own already established rules, all they should need to do is build a copy of Discovery's hull with a modern 32nd century computer core...

Not necessarily. Not all problems can be solved with more processing speed. Ex. In the 1980s, there were computer scientists who believed that as processing speeds reached and exceeded the speed of the human brain, broad AI quickly become a reality (not simply chess/GO/or movie predictive software). Now, 40 years later, many computer scientists are still predicting that broad AI is right around the corner. Meanwhile, others, such as Meredith Broussard (author of Artificial Unintelligence) believe that Broad AI and even technologies like self-driving cars are going to be much farther into the future than many predict if they ever exist, not because of speed, but because of the very design limitations of computer systems themselves. If there is something in the mycelial network that defies traditional binary computational methods and requires an analog brain, speed alone may not be enough to navigate the ship.

 

[dupersuper]

"We haven't talked to Deep Space 325 in 87 years"

Apologies if I've missed or forgotten something, but how did the burn take out long range subspace communication again?

I really loved the scenes with Osyraa and Vance. I can't say I agree with Vance here. Ultimately, justice is illusory and war criminals get away with things all the time. All the lives ruined or lost in the continuing struggle, with potentially the complete collapse of the Federation... letting one monster off the hook is a small price to pay to restore some semblance of stability and peace.

I'm with Vance. The very reputation Osyraa envies the Federation for is why they can't just join up with a power run by a dictator. It undermines their moral authority, the very thing she's banking on. They can't be a "beacon of hope" if they don't address her crimes.

Uh, why not? We’ve seen humans do it before, hell we’ve seen Data use it before. So clearly there isn’t a biological requirement.

Also:

I really did not like Stamets' turn here however one bit once Michael rescues him and they conflict about jumping back to the nebula. It was at least set up well in the previous episode, but the degree of conflict was really overplayed here. He's supposed to be a professional, and this is another example of the weirdly high level of drama in the series this year which results in my suspense of disbelief crashing down.

Hard disagree. His husband and "child" (as ridiculously quickly as that happened) are about to die slowly and painfully (and for the second time in his husbands case). The most "professional" person in Starfleet would be hard pressed to not run to the rescue, never mind Stamets, who has been "scientist first, Starfleet as needed" since season 1.

Well that was not an image I expected from Trek... Feces Apples.

According to Tucker that's how it worked in Enterprise. By TNG at the latest it seems to be straight energy-to-matter conversion, so maybe they've had to revert sometime since the burn. Likely for energy conservation?

Part of me is still hoping for a Voyager-J appearance with a Robert Picardo cameo as the ECH, still active after all these centuries.

Or the backup from Living Witness; he could've made it back by now...assuming he wasn't at warp during the burn.

Vance has now outranked William Ross, who despite being a mostly good Admiral did allow Section 31 agent Sloan to execute his secret missions inside DS9, which resulted in the invention of biological virus which almost wiped out the Founders and killed Odo, among other things. Ross also approved the assassination of Senator Vreenak to entice the Romulans to join the Dominion War.

Vance does not condone assassinations to achieve one's end and his decision to turn down Ossyrra's offer and does so from an ethical ground puts him on top of my "Good Federation Admirals" list.

Agreed, though he didn't turn down her offer, just had a condition she refused.

Osyraa's true colors and for the audience to finally realize she's dangerous.

I mean, didn't she brutally murder her nephew in her first appearance?

Well, then whatever gizmo they use to magically make these kinds of wounds disappear. Like when Riker had been disfigured by Data's cat.

A dermal regenerator?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Now that's what I'm talking about.

That was good. Better then the shitfest we had last week.

7/10

We finally see Osyraa's true colours.... Poor Ryn

That bit at the end got me. She just ordered her ship to fire on the shield. What is Vance going to do about that, ans is that even him? Did you notice that little twitch in his face at the end of the episode with some kind of sound effect, like a hologram or something.

Is that really Glasses Guy playing as Vance in a much larger plan?

Surely firing on the Federation shield is an act of war and what the heck are they going to do about it?

So the sphere data is inside all the DOT7 robots..... Loved that line about taking back the ship, you go boys kick some fucking butt. This is Star Trek so I doubt we will see Osyraa actually killed, however much I want that to happen. She's pure evil and should die.

I am super excited for the season finale now.

Another cliffhanger ending.

 

[Ralph O Ward III]

Ironic that the Emerald Chain could not solve the dilithium problem any more than the Federation could despite its investment in research. Seem like after the burn, while the Federation was conserving their dilithium reserves, the chain was using it like there was no tomorrow.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Yes, the navigation system who's problem was... Not enough processing power...

Absolutely. The Glenn and Straal were significantly outpacing the Discovery and Stamets, with the Glenn making spore jumps of tens of light-years and the Discovery only able to manage a few thousand miles due to a lack of processing power when computing a trajectory through the mycelial network. Stamets postulated that the Glenn must be using a supercomputer of some sort which obviously turned out to be the tartigrade and later Stamets himself.

After 900 years you'd tend to think processing power wouldn't be an issue and longer and the 'living navigator' could be replaced.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Not necessarily. Not all problems can be solved with more processing speed.

This problem is down to processing speed though and was stated numerous times as being such in Season One. Starfleet computers weren't up to the task which meant only very short spore-jumps were possible safely - when anything longer was attempted the computer hardware on the Discovery couldn't keep up and they ended up jumping inside a star on one occasion. But the tartigrade acted as a 'living supercomputer' which provided sufficient processing power for longer spore-jumps.

 

[Seven of Five]

I finally realised what the final scene with the little droid things reminded me of - Wall-E!

 

[Ghel]

This problem is down to processing speed though and was stated numerous times as being such in Season One. Starfleet computers weren't up to the task which meant only very short spore-jumps were possible safely - when anything longer was attempted the computer hardware on the Discovery couldn't keep up and they ended up jumping inside a star on one occasion. But the tartigrade acted as a 'living supercomputer' which provided sufficient processing power for longer spore-jumps.

I would still argue that just because Stamets believed this to be the case in Discovery season one doesn't make it true any more than the predictions of computer scientists in the 1980s who believed that broad AI would become a reality within a decade based upon research and processing speed. What Stamets believed was only a processing speed issue in the pre-Kirk era could easily turn into a much more complex problem as more were learned about it.
Similarly, just as short spore jumps could be successfully handled by computers, so too have truly driverless cars "successfully" existed since approximately 1958 (on a 400 foot stretch of highway embedded with electronic circuits). A short jump with a computer under test conditions may be far different than a long jump under operational conditions.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

I would still argue that just because Stamets believed this to be the case in Discovery season one doesn't make it true any more than the predictions of computer scientists in the 1980s who believed that broad AI would become a reality within a decade based upon research and processing speed. What Stamets believed was only a processing speed issue in the pre-Kirk era could easily turn into a much more complex problem as more were learned about it.
Similarly, just as short spore jumps could be successfully handled by computers, so too have truly driverless cars "successfully" existed since approximately 1958 (on a 400 foot stretch of highway embedded with electronic circuits). A short jump with a computer under test conditions may be far different than a long jump under operational conditions.

Well yeah you're free to argue anything you wish, but arguing the issue isn't down to processing power when Stamets has said on a number of occasions it is down to processing power seems a bit unnecessary in my own opinion. But whatever works for you!

 

[StarMan]

Best episode of the season. Which, regrettably, isn't saying an awful lot.

I think there was a missed opportunity here. If The Federation and The Chain had formed an alliance, it would have presented Our Heroes™ an interesting dilemma: do they go along with the alliance, or do they face some hard truths that this Federation - willing to put aside it's principles and merge with a less-than-scrupulous organisation - is no longer their Federation?

I was genuinely intrigued as to where the negotiations were going. Pity they blew it up. Also, kudos for progressing Osyra beyond a cardboard cutout. Why save it for the penultimate episode, though? Hope she's still in the game by the end of the season.

As eschaton alluded to further up, there is a lot of filler in what was touted as a tighter, serialised mode of storytelling. The season-long arcs simply don't have enough meat on them IMO. There's a lot of meandering about for the majority of the season, with the odd nudge of the mystery box as we go, before hitting the accelerator in the final few episodes.

 

[Ghel]

Well yeah you're free to argue anything you wish, but arguing the issue isn't down to processing power when Stamets has said on a number of occasions it is down to processing power seems a bit unnecessary in my own opinion. But whatever works for you!

I definitely get where you're coming from. I just don't necessarily believe just because the character states something in season 1, that it has to be treated as gospel for the remainder of the series either. It's like Picard stating that they have never met the Ferengi or Borg before the encounters with the Enterprise, but we learn later that other people within or outside of the Federation actually did. In both cases, Picard is making a statement that is to the best of his knowledge at the time, but which later turns out to be inaccurate because the writers decided to either retcon or ignore the earlier statement. In this case, while Stamets *says* it's processing power, season 3 is *showing* that there is more to the spore drive than simply processing speed.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Yes, the navigation system who's problem was... Not enough processing power...

If only they were 900 years in the future where computer power had advanced exponentially to the point where FTL processors were a thing...

Oh... Wait... They are...

But then under there own already established rules, all they should need to do is build a copy of Discovery's hull with a modern 32nd century computer core...

Except the issue wasn't solely processing power. The drive only worked correctly when it had a biological navigator who could interact with the mycelial plane and it was stated back in season 1 by Admiral Cornwell that drive was useless without the tardigrade. This is reiterated again in this weeks episode when Stamets says that he was also unable to replicate the tardigrade cells.