The Clone Wars and Rebels - A First Timer's Thread

[tomalak301]

I promised myself I wouldn't do this thread, but lately I feel like I've been taking up some of the other threads in this forum and now I'm at the stage of this series where something wonderful has happened and that Prequel-itis that was plaguing the series has gone and has been replaced with some of the best Star Wars I've seen in a long long time.

I'm going in Air Date order, and I just saw the Mortis trilogy. I've been told this episode was very Force heavy, and @Reverend was right in that this wasn't really an origin story. What this was was really understanding the nature of the force, how it works, why it's there, and the destinies our characters will face moving forward. These three episodes really set up Anakin very well, but I think it also set up Ahsoka very well too, with the warning to leave Anakin (I have accidentally read some vauge spoilers on what is to come). I think what I liked about this episode though was the imagery of everything, the father, the son, the daughter (I was thinking a lot about the Christian faith and the holy trinity watching this episode) and how they seemed to be the physical representation of the Force and the difficulty to maintain the balance. That scene where the Son shows Anakin his fate was incredible, showing how it tied to Revenge of the Sith.

I think I've come to the point where this series is an easy binge now. Starting with the episode where Amedala goes to see the Seperatists leading to the terrorist attack and the deregulation bill, to the Night Sisters arc, this series has not only gotten good, I would say it's gotten great.

I'm not sure I will talk about every episode, but I'll check back from time to time as my excitement allows. Those first two seasons were hard to get through. To see this turnaround in such a quick time has been a joy.

 

[Turtletrekker]

You've taken your first step into a larger world.

And, yes, the Mortis Trilogy was incredible.

 

[Skywalker]

I do kinda wish you'd gone with the chronological order instead of the airdate order, but I think you're now around the point where both orders are pretty much the same anyway. I'm glad you're enjoying it! The first two seasons had some good stuff, but season 3 was when it really started picking up.

 

[Shawnster]

Clone Wars helped me appreciate Anakin's character. It really fleshed him out. I didn't expect to enjoy it as much as I did.

I don't have much desire to re-watch the prequel (nor sequel) trilogy, but I've re-watched Clone Wars.

 

[tomalak301]

I do kinda wish you'd gone with the chronological order instead of the airdate order, but I think you're now around the point where both orders are pretty much the same anyway. I'm glad you're enjoying it! The first two seasons had some good stuff, but season 3 was when it really started picking up.

If I rewatch the series I will go chronological. At first I didn't really see the point, but the deeper I get into this, the more I wonder if I should have. For example, the story about the Deregulating Banks bill from earlier in the season also included an episode from season 2 about Padme's Uncle (?) getting killed. I guess for casual fans like myself, chronological doesn't really mean as much as it would for the hardcore fans.

 

[tomalak301]

One thing I do like about this series is they took the Enterprise Season 4 arc approach with the mini-arcs. I think the mini-arcs work really well for an animated show like this mainly because of the 24 minute run time for each episode. I'm watching the Cidital episodes and while not as good as the Mortis arc, it's been decent. I love the slyness of Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka really has grown a lot this season. Also, they showed Tarkin for the first time. That's pretty cool.

 

[Reverend]

These three episodes really set up Anakin very well, but I think it also set up Ahsoka very well too, with the warning to leave Anakin (I have accidentally read some vauge spoilers on what is to come). I think what I liked about this episode though was the imagery of everything, the father, the son, the daughter (I was thinking a lot about the Christian faith and the holy trinity watching this episode) and how they seemed to be the physical representation of the Force and the difficulty to maintain the balance

The thing to remember about these episodes in particular is that it's 1) straight from the brain of George Lucas, and 2) EVERYTHING is a metaphor.
For example, take the scene where the Father tries to force Anakin to choose between Ahsoka and Obi-Wan; forget Anakin and the Father for a moment and watch what's going on with Obi-Wan and Ahsoka. The Daughter (the light) has Obi-Wan's arms in both talons, and he's being totally passive, not struggling. The Son on the other hand only has Ahsoka by only one arm on one talon, and she's struggling like crazy.
This scene is as much about who Ahsoka and Obi-Wan are at their core as it does about what's going on with Anakin.

The arc is full of details like this, even seemingly innocuous lines like "the chains are the easy part, it's what goes on in here that's hard" seems to be saying something about the Sith code and their mentality. Some even accurately predict the (non-movie) future: -

Spoiler: Late Clone Wars and beyond

"You are alone now. If you are to survive you must forget your master."

P.S. Fun fact, these episodes almost made Revan canon. (Yes, I know they're technically canon now, but at the time, not so much.) For the record, I'm glad they cut this is it would have seemingly diminished the Son's agency, and the idea that mere Sith Lords could 1) influence such a powerful being and 2) retain consciousness within the cosmic force just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[tomalak301]

Chewie is in Clone Wars. That is awesome. I wonder if Mandalorian will bring back Chewie (Unless they feel it will dishonor Mayhew's memory) in some form, and then we have a Chewie/Ahsoka reunion. Heck, maybe that's one for the new show.

I liked the dedication to Peter Mayhew during the credits of the finale episode.

 

[Reverend]

Mayhew actually consulted on that episode to help them get the movements and personality right.
I can't see any issue with Chewie showing up in the live action shows since Mayhew had already retired from the role and passed the torch over to Joonas Suotamo before he passed away, and Joonas seems very much up for returning to the role.

I'd say these episodes are pivotal for Ahsoka's development, and represent a crucial turning point for her character. She's not really a kid anymore.

 

[Xerxes82]

My favorite bits of the Mortis arc are some of the ways they reflect on, and play with, elements from Revenge of the Sith, and even the OT. In the scene where the Daughter (who literally has Padme's face, it's the exact same model on a different body) dies, her final act is to give life back to the mortally wounded (or poisoned, I guess) Ahsoka. Recalling to the audience, or foretelling to Anakin, Padme's fate in dying as she brings Luke and Leia into the world.

Or the wonderful metaphor with Obi-Wan and the dagger (which is mostly a stand in for Anakin). Led to the dagger by the Daughter (the light), only to lose it to the Son (the dark side) who uses it to slay his sister and bring darkness to the fore in the same way that Anakin will slay the Jedi and see the Sith ascend. Or how the Father sacrifices himself, suffering a mortal wound so that Anakin can slay the Son, again recalling to the audience the way in which Vader will sacrifice himself aboard the DS2 to save Luke, and which allows the now redeemed Anakin to finally end Palpatine and restore the balance.

 

[tomalak301]

I'd say these episodes are pivotal for Ahsoka's development, and represent a crucial turning point for her character. She's not really a kid anymore.

I think this entire season was pivotal for Ahsoka, knowing she could take care of herself on her own and slowly starting to break away from Anakin. I am noticing Anakin's over-protectiveness of her though, much in the same why he acted towards Padme.

 

[Ithekro]

Anakin has a hard time letting go. Yoda giving him Ahsoka was an attempt to give him someone who he would need to let go of (like when she would became a Jedi Knight). He struggles with this...and as we saw, by Revenge of the Sith, he's not gotten it. Though the Clone Wars does show WHY Anakin is a miffed at the Jedi Council.

 

[tomalak301]

The start of Season 4, the Water War episodes, is reminding me too much about the first two seasons of the show. Prince Char doesn't really seem like he's ready to lead, and Ahsoka is coming across as that school teacher who has to hold his hand. I get this is a kids show, but it's a Kids show that just went into some pretty dark places to end season 3 with the Mortis trilogy and having to see Ahsoka survive on her own. Also, bringing in the Gunguns don't help, as I still think they are the worst species to ever appear in Star Wars. I am loving seeing Captain Akbar, and the underwater effects are actually quite good.

 

[Reverend]

The start of Season 4, the Water War episodes, is reminding me too much about the first two seasons of the show. Prince Char doesn't really seem like he's ready to lead, and Ahsoka is coming across as that school teacher who has to hold his hand. I get this is a kids show, but it's a Kids show that just went into some pretty dark places to end season 3 with the Mortis trilogy and having to see Ahsoka survive on her own. Also, bringing in the Gunguns don't help, as I still think they are the worst species to ever appear in Star Wars. I am loving seeing Captain Akbar, and the underwater effects are actually quite good.

Yeah, while interesting from a lore POV, I always felt this arc didn't need to be 4 episodes long.

 

[tomalak301]

Just started the Umbara arc (Watched episode 1) and the development of the characters like Rex really made this episode hit hard. The general treats these men as nothing but mindless clones and even sends them to the slaughter. I'm glad Rex stood up to him at the end there and there almost seems to be a mutual understanding. Still, this episode works because the series has done well to actually develop these clone characters, unlike in the movies (And Mandalorian) where the Stormtroopers are basically lambs to the slaughter.

 

[fireproof78]

Just started the Umbara arc (Watched episode 1) and the development of the characters like Rex really made this episode hit hard. The general treats these men as nothing but mindless clones and even sends them to the slaughter. I'm glad Rex stood up to him at the end there and there almost seems to be a mutual understanding. Still, this episode works because the series has done well to actually develop these clone characters, unlike in the movies (And Mandalorian) where the Stormtroopers are basically lambs to the slaughter.

This is what makes Clone Wars so painful to watch. The Jedi, even with the best of intentions, still end up using this army with little regard for a lot of these troops as people. I get that it was an emergency, and all that jazz, but it just puts the Jedi in such a poor light. It's very hard.

And it falls so flat with ROTS.

 

[tomalak301]

Watched the remaining episodes of this arc. It's not as good as Mortis, but after what I thought was a terrible start to Season 4, these four episodes were brilliant. I loved the development of the 501st, and Rex really shined in all four episodes. I wonder if there will be any fall out, especially since Anakin gave the leadership of this platoon to Krell.

This is what makes Clone Wars so painful to watch. The Jedi, even with the best of intentions, still end up using this army with little regard for a lot of these troops as people. I get that it was an emergency, and all that jazz, but it just puts the Jedi in such a poor light. It's very hard.

I was reading some comments about the Mandalorian finale and one of the commenters asked a really good question. Are the Jedi just as bad as The Empire? Yeah we think they are the good guys, but in episodes like this we see them use the clone troopers as pretty much cannon fodder, just like the Empire uses the Storm Troopers as Fodder in the movies. I see the actions of Krell (And he admitted he had turned against the Jedi) and think what if there are more people like Krell, waiting for a chance to flourish.

The way Krell fought with the lightsaber reminded me too much of General Grievous.

I haven't seen ROTS in a long time so I just rewatched the Order 66 scene. Good Lord that makes these four episodes of Clone Wars even that more painful.

 

[Ithekro]

It greatly depended on the Jedi really. Some see the clones as basically biological droids crafted for war. Others treat each clone as their own person being asked to fight a war like a soldier.
The Jedi are not trained to fight a war, or lead troops into battle, so they all have a large learning curve going on. Jedi have enough skills via the Force to survive a frontal assault, and the clones will just go with it. If the Jedi is charismatic or just willing to lead by example...the clones will follow and if the Jedi is any good at it, the clones will respect them greatly.

Jedi like Ahsoka and Anakin treat their clones well as individuals. Remembers names. And leading the charge. The clones respect them greatly. Obi-wan tends to think about keeping his troops alive and uses his tricks to keep the enemy off guard. Yoda tries to know what clones are with him individually, which the clones react towards (That and the little green one can take out an entire Separatist Army all by himself, that earns a lot of points with clones.)

Other Jedi, like Mace Windu, try to maintain a distance from attachments to the clones, but still considers casualties. Other Jedi are detached from their troops, or don't fight on the front line as often, directing the battles from command centers. Others like Krell treat them like battle droids, and is only slightly less violent towards them than Grievous is towards his own troops.

Mundi is a little detached and pushes hard. Alya Secura is close to her troops (When Order 66 happened, they tried to make it as quick and painless as they could for her). Plo-Kun tries to take care of his troopers. Luminara is detached. Others we only get small bits of how they interact with their troopers or how their troopers relate to them outside of following orders.

Stormtroopers were suppose to be the elite forces, but basically became the cannon fodder over the decades as Imperial policies don't really push teamwork and comradery. The closest you will get to that is the TIE Fighter pilots, and they are treated as expendable resources as well. Stormtroopers are just regular human recruits after the Empire starts to phase out the clones. The Empire only wants numbers. Quantity, not Quality. They have far, far too much territory to cover with a quality army like the Grand Army of the Republic. So whatever human they can stuff in armor and hand a blaster to while they remain loyal to the Emperor. While Darth Vader is not as caring as Anakin was, it seems he still treats his troops like the clones. His troops of course, fear him. They respect him as well since he will join them on the front line from time to time.

 

[USS Firefly]

Alya Secura is close to her troops (When Order 66 happened, they tried to make it as quick and painless as they could for her).

Didn't her Clone troopers keep on firing on her when she was already down?

 

[Reverend]

I was reading some comments about the Mandalorian finale and one of the commenters asked a really good question. Are the Jedi just as bad as The Empire? Yeah we think they are the good guys, but in episodes like this we see them use the clone troopers as pretty much cannon fodder, just like the Empire uses the Storm Troopers as Fodder in the movies. I see the actions of Krell (And he admitted he had turned against the Jedi) and think what if there are more people like Krell, waiting for a chance to flourish.

There's a reason why there's a pair of lines in ROTS's opening crawl that reads: "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere."
There's also a reason why Yoda would later say "Wars do not make one great."

This whole conflict is meant to be an atrocity on all fronts. The Jedi are trying to end the war, but they're doing so from the front lines, which makes them conquerors. Note that this arc also didn't really feature battledroids for a change; it's local Umbarans that the clones are fighting and killing.
One of the things I hope the 'Andor' show touches on is the fact that he was a child soldier on a separatist world and his earliest memories are of throwing rocks at the occupying clones.

The idea that the Jedi are blind to their own wrongdoings brings to mind a quote from Terry Pratchett's 'Hogfather': -

“And then Jack chopped down what was the world's last beanstalk, adding murder and ecological terrorism to the theft, enticement, and trespass charges already mentioned, and all the giant's children didn't have a daddy anymore. But he got away with it and lived happily ever after, without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done...which proves that you can be excused for just about anything if you are a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.”​