Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x01 - "That Hope Is You, Part 1"

[Saul]

good start although the reality is that states die, it is as if we are now trying to recreate the Roman Empire or the Austo-Hungarian Empire or USSR or any other state that no longer exists I don't like fanaticism and Burnham's nationalism by the federation was seen as fanaticism

That's an interesting point but granted she comes from a time where the Federation is a thing, it's difficult to let go of that. Also the Federation represented a better time, it wasn't an evil empire, it was the thing that kept everything running. It was more than a nation, it was an ideal.

 

[Laptopia]

good start although the reality is that states die, it is as if we are now trying to recreate the Roman Empire or the Austo-Hungarian Empire or USSR or any other state that no longer exists I don't like fanaticism and Burnham's nationalism by the federation was seen as fanaticism

Agreed. I didn’t buy her shock that the Federation had collapsed sometime within the last 900 years. That ought to be almost expected. If I traveled 900 years into the future, I’d be more surprised at any geopolitical powers that remained in continuous existence the whole time rather than those which had failed at some point along the way. The principles of the Federation and rebuilding some sort of political entity that respects those principles is more important than any direct lineage to ‘the federation’ and it does come off as weird. But it probably makes for better tv ratings to have something viewers are familiar with.

 

[Cap'n Calhoun]

TNG didn't look much different from the TOS Movies.

They did a few things to "futurize" like the relatively frequent use of holographic displays, but a lot of that kind of disappeared after a season or so. When I watch an episode that uses them it throws me off a little.

 

[fireproof78]

Agreed. I didn’t buy her shock that the Federation had collapsed sometime within the last 900 years. That ought to be almost expected. If I traveled 900 years into the future, I’d be more surprised at any geopolitical powers that remained in continuous existence the whole time rather than those which had failed at some point along the way. The principles of the Federation and rebuilding some sort of political entity that respects those principles is more important than any direct lineage to ‘the federation’ and it does come off as weird. But it probably makes for better tv ratings to have something viewers are familiar with.

Something can still be shocking even if it is totally expected. The Federation is also something that sets itself up as very benevolent even in expansion, so the idea that it would just collapse the way that it did is probably not expected.

Honestly, the rebuilding of the Federation is something I would expect. People want what is familiar, and there is a clear representation of the Federation in this time, unlike say me trying to restart the Roman empire. The Federation's impact is still known even in this century so Burnham and company have something to work from.

 

[rhllot]

Yeah, it's like cloning dinosaurs.

And even if you try to do it, it will be a different state, it will no longer be what it was in the past, Charlemagne tried but the Holy Roman Empire was no longer the old Roman Empire, it was a new state.

 

[Laptopia]

Something can still be shocking even if it is totally expected. The Federation is also something that sets itself up as very benevolent even in expansion, so the idea that it would just collapse the way that it did is probably not expected.

Honestly, the rebuilding of the Federation is something I would expect. People want what is familiar, and there is a clear representation of the Federation in this time, unlike say me trying to restart the Roman empire. The Federation's impact is still known even in this century so Burnham and company have something to work from.

That's true. Only being 100 years removed from being a major power, and having not disappeared entirely makes it more reasonable to try and rebuild from the ashes than if it had been conquered/collapsed 500 years ago. It depends on what vestiges are actually left. There may be more left than we realize if the characters are currently in some backwater and cut off from the historic central areas of the Federation.

All in all, the 'fanaticism' aspect is mostly a nitpick from me. Rebuilding the Federation or some other similarly principled organization sounds like an interesting season to me. I mostly hope that they just pick one or two major themes and explore them fully and do some world-building. If they do that, I'll be happy.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Agreed. I didn’t buy her shock that the Federation had collapsed sometime within the last 900 years. That ought to be almost expected. If I traveled 900 years into the future, I’d be more surprised at any geopolitical powers that remained in continuous existence the whole time rather than those which had failed at some point along the way. The principles of the Federation and rebuilding some sort of political entity that respects those principles is more important than any direct lineage to ‘the federation’ and it does come off as weird. But it probably makes for better tv ratings to have something viewers are familiar with.

She was born sixty years after the Federation was founded, and was a couple years shy of its hundred year anniversary when she jumped time. She grew up on Vulcan surrounded, no doubt, by elders who recalled the pre-Federation days. This is pretty much like a cowboy right after the Civil War saying that America will be around in the year 2525. Really, bud? Are you positive? The country just nearly wiped itself out last year, but whatever.

 

[rhllot]

That's an interesting point but granted she comes from a time where the Federation is a thing, it's difficult to let go of that. Also the Federation represented a better time, it wasn't an evil empire, it was the thing that kept everything running. It was more than a nation, it was an ideal.

Do you think the Austro-Hungarian Empire was evil? It was one of the most prosperous states of its time. All of its former member states lived with a very high quality of life for the time and had a government that respected the autonomy, culture and language of the different states. for something to this day there are monarchists in different states that were that empire who have a positive vision of the empire. but that state died is what happens with the passage of time. One day the US will also die the same as Canada or Mexico or any other country.

 

[Laptopia]

She was born sixty years after the Federation was founded, and was a couple years shy of its hundred year anniversary when she jumped time. She grew up on Vulcan surrounded, no doubt, by elders who recalled the pre-Federation days. This is pretty much like a cowboy right after the Civil War saying that America will be around in the year 2525. Really, bud? Are you positive? The country just nearly wiped itself out last year, but whatever.

May the Union be perpetual!

 

[eschaton]

Honestly, the rebuilding of the Federation is something I would expect. People want what is familiar, and there is a clear representation of the Federation in this time, unlike say me trying to restart the Roman empire. The Federation's impact is still known even in this century so Burnham and company have something to work from.

Hell, lots of individuals (Vulcans, Klingons, synthetic life, etc) are long-lived enough to actually remember the Federation before the fall.

 

[fireproof78]

Hell, lots of individuals (Vulcans, Klingons, synthetic life, etc) are long-lived enough to actually remember the Federation before the fall.

Also that.

Honestly, even if her shock is off putting to some, her desire to build an organization based upon the Federation's values makes sense, and since the Federation of sorts has some memory amongst the population then it makes more sense to her wanting to rebuild.

It's not like Burnham is gathering people and going "OK, you're the Federation."

"We've never heard of that!"

"Don't worry about it. Just believe."

There is clearly a Federation memory and idealism still there.

 

[eschaton]

In my mind, the argument for rebuilding the Federation would be better if we got some time to see that everything had descended into a crapsack galaxy without its presence. IMHO the first episode didn't quite cut it.

Really though, I don't know if I like the implication of a fallen Federation meaning a crapsack galaxy. I can absolutely believe that if most interstellar travel ended the Federation would start spinning apart. But everything getting awful in the absence of the Federation implies that its not moral self-advancement that made the Federation work, but a set of strong institutions providing stability. This is a remarkably conservative - even a reactionary - framing - that people are basically good not because they are enlightened, but because the state controls their behavior (even if the "stick" is very small).

 

[rhllot]

Something can still be shocking even if it is totally expected. The Federation is also something that sets itself up as very benevolent even in expansion, so the idea that it would just collapse the way that it did is probably not expected.

Honestly, the rebuilding of the Federation is something I would expect. People want what is familiar, and there is a clear representation of the Federation in this time, unlike say me trying to restart the Roman empire. The Federation's impact is still known even in this century so Burnham and company have something to work from.

I'm sure there are communists in eastern Europe who would love to recreate the soviet union, but that's not going to happen. because when the states fall, the states that are born after that fall are not interested in going back to the past, they seek the best for their own interests.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Do you think the Austro-Hungarian Empire was evil? It was one of the most prosperous states of its time. All of its former member states lived with a very high quality of life for the time and had a government that respected the autonomy, culture and language of the different states. for something to this day there are monarchists in different states that were that empire who have a positive vision of the empire. but that state died is what happens with the passage of time. One day the US will also die the same as Canada or Mexico or any other country.

Austria-Hungary was just two countries (Austria and, get this, Hungary) that shared an Emperor and some government responsibilities. When Hungary (and then Austria) dropped the Emperor, they went their separate ways. And Austria and Hungary have existed ever since, in various states of disarray.

 

[Yistaan]

But everything getting awful in the absence of the Federation

I think that ship already sailed with Enterprise when the galaxy was awful until Archer magically fixed it up and formed the Federation.

I'm sure there are communists in eastern Europe who would love to recreate the soviet union, but that's not going to happen. because when the states fall, the states that are born after that fall are not interested in going back to the past, they seek the best for their own interests.

"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their 'rightful place' on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

- Michael Eddington to Captain Sisko (DS9: "For the Cause")

 

[Jadeb]

I liked that the Federation’s limping along rather than forgotten entirely. I thought that dude sitting at a desk for 40 years was a stretch — who is he waiting on? — but I buy the notion that people would want to rebuild something relatively recent that was better than what they have now.

I found less convincing Burnham’s inability to wrap her head around the fact that the distant future is unlike the 23rd century. If I were to go 900 years into the future, I would expect it to be pretty darn different. Trek itself expects us to buy that life has become radically transformed in a third of that time.

 

[Saul]

Do you think the Austro-Hungarian Empire was evil? It was one of the most prosperous states of its time. All of its former member states lived with a very high quality of life for the time and had a government that respected the autonomy, culture and language of the different states. for something to this day there are monarchists in different states that were that empire who have a positive vision of the empire.

What I want to say is that the Federation represents the perfection of humanity and other members with equality among all, no longer the need for money etc. It's understandable that a person taken out of their time would want that back and believes other's would benefit from it.

I liked that the Federation’s limping along rather than forgotten entirely. I thought that dude sitting at a desk for 40 years was a stretch — who is he waiting on?

I thought he was waiting for Michael Burnham specifically. That Starfleet knew she would be popping up somewhere in the 32nd century and she would be the key to saving what's left of the Federation. Which would make sense as to why he was waiting there so long, he was waiting for her.

 

[Yistaan]

I liked that the Federation’s limping along rather than forgotten entirely. I thought that dude sitting at a desk for 40 years was a stretch — who is he waiting on? — but I buy the notion that people would want to rebuild something relatively recent that was better than what they have now.

The guy waiting for 40 years stretched suspension of disbelief to the extreme. No wonder Book has a low opinion of Federationers. It's not even practical. The guy should have left a holorecording saying that he's not manning the station due to low use, and left his subspace communicator number if a Federationer actually shows up and wants his services (at which point he'll travel back to the station to help said Federationer).

 

[rhllot]

Austria-Hungary was just two countries (Austria and, get this, Hungary) that shared an Emperor and some government responsibilities. When Hungary (and then Austria) dropped the Emperor, they went their separate ways. And Austria and Hungary have existed ever since, in various states of disarray.

Bohemia and the kingdom of Croatia had the status of a kingdom within the empire, but even other territories such as the Polish part of the empire had autonomy and the language and culture were respected, it was in that part of Poland where nothing similar to Germanization was ever practiced or Russification practiced by the German Empire or the Russian Empire.

 

[Tim Thomason]

According to Ancestry.com, my great-great-great-great grandfather fought valiantly in the Crimean War. But when Russia again decided to invade Crimea a few years back, I chose to sit that one out. Sorry, Gramps.