Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x01 - "That Hope Is You, Part 1"

[rhllot]

I think that ship already sailed with Enterprise when the galaxy was awful until Archer magically fixed it up and formed the Federation.

"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their 'rightful place' on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

- Michael Eddington to Captain Sisko (DS9: "For the Cause")

I love the maquis they are so great! I wish they could have created their own independent nation!

 

[Jadeb]

I thought he was waiting for Michael Burnham specifically. That Starfleet knew she would be popping up somewhere in the 32nd century and she would be the key to saving what's left of the Federation. Which would make sense as to why he was waiting there so long, he was waiting for her.

Even if they were to put all their eggs in that rather bizarre basket, why wouldn’t they wait on Terralysium? Why would you expect her, or anyone, to show up in a random office in an abandoned relay station? And to wait there for 40 years? That dude wouldn’t be my first pick for a landing party, if you get my drift.

 

[rhllot]

According to Ancestry.com, my great-great-great-great grandfather fought valiantly in the Crimean War. But when Russia again decided to invade Crimea a few years back, I chose to sit that one out. Sorry, Gramps.

In fact, in that war, Russia had not invaded Crimea, it was already part of Russia, what the western powers wanted was for the Russians to disarm their maritime bases so that they would not be a threat to the Ottoman Empire, which at that time was practically in a puppet state of england and france.

 

[Saul]

Even if they were to put all their eggs in that rather bizarre basket, why wouldn’t they wait on Terralysium? Why would you expect her, or anyone, to show up in a random office in an abandoned relay station? And to wait there for 40 years? That dude wouldn’t be my first pick for a landing party, if you get my drift.

My impression was he was scanning space for some wormhole/time disturbance at the beginning. Maybe he couldn't warp to Terralysium? Or the Planet is too dangerous and unstable with pirates and stuff?

 

[Laptopia]

What I want to say is that the Federation represents the perfection of humanity and other members with equality among all, no longer the need for money etc. It's understandable that a person taken out of their time would want that back and believes other's would benefit from it.


I thought he was waiting for Michael Burnham specifically. That Starfleet knew she would be popping up somewhere in the 32nd century and she would be the key to saving what's left of the Federation. Which would make sense as to why he was waiting there so long, he was waiting for her.

Wait, what? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that at all. The Federation may have known she would pop out somewhere in the 32nd century. They may have even sent out an advisory for all liaisons to be on the lookout for her. But not because they would have known she was the key to their salvation. They probably would have done such a thing solely in the interests of helping her and her crew to assimilate to a new time.

Even after the Federation collapsed, I doubt the remaining big-wigs would have been sitting around a derelict space station somewhere saying, "Well, we can still hope for Michael Burnham to show up some day! Order all remaining liaisons to continually man their posts just in case, no matter anything else!". Those remaining functionaries could have collectively spent their time doing things much more useful than just waiting around for decades. Why would they think she could make any bigger difference then any of them?

 

[rhllot]

In my mind, the argument for rebuilding the Federation would be better if we got some time to see that everything had descended into a crapsack galaxy without its presence. IMHO the first episode didn't quite cut it.

Really though, I don't know if I like the implication of a fallen Federation meaning a crapsack galaxy. I can absolutely believe that if most interstellar travel ended the Federation would start spinning apart. But everything getting awful in the absence of the Federation implies that its not moral self-advancement that made the Federation work, but a set of strong institutions providing stability. This is a remarkably conservative - even a reactionary - framing - that people are basically good not because they are enlightened, but because the state controls their behavior (even if the "stick" is very small).

the idea that the federation is a galactic leviathan in the style of Hobbesian thought is not a very pleasant sight.

 

[Saul]

Even after the Federation collapsed, I doubt the remaining big-wigs would have been sitting around a derelict space station somewhere saying, "Well, we can still hope for Michael Burnham to show up some day! Order all remaining liaisons to continually man their posts just in case, no matter anything else!". Those remaining functionaries could have collectively spent their time doing things much more useful than just waiting around for decades. Why would they think she could make any bigger difference then any of them?

Because she was taking Discovery with her with it's spore drive? A ship that is terribly out of date but in the mess the Federation is in it represents the top of the line.

 

[Jadeb]

My impression was he was scanning space for some wormhole/time disturbance at the beginning. Maybe he couldn't warp to Terralysium? Or the Planet is too dangerous and unstable with pirates and stuff?

Maybe, but what are they expecting someone from 900 years ago to do for them that they can’t do themselves? And didn’t that dude say there were a couple of Federation ships in the area? Someone couldn’t have told him it was OK to hang up a flag?

 

[Yistaan]

Maybe, but what are they expecting someone from 900 years ago to do for them that they can’t do themselves? And didn’t that dude say there were a couple of Federation ships in the area? Someone couldn’t have told him it was OK to hang a flag up?

Normally these plot holes would tip Burnham (and the audience) that something's wrong and this guy is not who he says he is, but unfortunately this show doesn't seem to work that way.

 

[rhllot]

Suppose the United States falls, many times we saw things like that in many fictions. But suppose it does so for political reasons and not for catastrophe. You believe that successor states such as the Republic of Texas or the Republic of California would be cruel dictatorships or would be democracies. I believe that most of the people in the United States love democracy if they had to create new states they would maintain the values that democracy represents

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sure there are communists in eastern Europe who would love to recreate the soviet union, but that's not going to happen. because when the states fall, the states that are born after that fall are not interested in going back to the past, they seek the best for their own interests.

And if using the past to support their own interests? It's not black and white. Again, the Federation isn't completely gone, even if "true believers" are regarded poorly.

 

[Visitor1982]

Does anyone know why this episode is called That Hope Is You Part 1? From the episode listing for the whole season, there doesn't seem to be a Part 2.

 

[Laptopia]

Maybe, but what are they expecting someone from 900 years ago to do for them that they can’t do themselves? And didn’t that dude say there were a couple of Federation ships in the area? Someone couldn’t have told him it was OK to hang a flag up?

Yeah, that guy wouldn't have lasted one day on DS9. Sisko would have thrown him out of an airlock for bugging him about flag protocol during a war. Assuming someone else didn't beat him to it.

 

[Saul]

Maybe, but what are they expecting someone from 900 years ago to do for them that they can’t do themselves?

They seem pretty useless at the moment. At the very least the spore dive is a big win for them. They can't warp but they now have a ship that can go anywhere, even to alternate universes.

And didn’t that dude say there were a couple of Federation ships in the area? Someone couldn’t have told him it was OK to hang a flag up?

Either they can't or they aren't official starfleet officers also. I dunno. He's pretty strict on regulations.

 

[rhllot]

And if using the past to support their own interests? It's not black and white. Again, the Federation isn't completely gone, even if "true believers" are regarded poorly.

will the soviet union ever fall as long as we keep the idea of communism?

 

[fireproof78]

will the soviet union ever fall as long as we keep the idea of communism?

Depends on who you ask. I still seem some who regard that positively and others who fight back against any representation of it.

 

[Jadeb]

Normally these plot holes would tip Burnham (and the audience) that something's wrong and this guy is not who he says he is, but unfortunately this show doesn't seem to work that way.

I wondered if Book’s killing spree/tender animal lover shtick was meant to serve a similar purpose — to make Burnham (and the audience) suspicious of him. But I came to a similar conclusion as you. I don’t have faith the easy emotional moments are anything more than easy emotional moments. Hope I’m wrong.

 

[arch101]

There were many in Italy and France in the 600s who still believed they were living in the Roman Empire even though the western empire had been gone since 476. They still spoke Latin, used Roman money and had local Roman governments. Seems like that’s where they’re going with the 32nd century Federation. I’ll bet not all parts of the galaxy are like the one Burnham is in now. I did not catch where exactly she is in the ep. did anyone else?

 

[Gepard]

I'm about halfway through the episode and so far I'm enjoying the smaller scope of two people wandering around a planet getting to know the lay of the metaphorical land. Michael and Book's interactions are enjoyable. I could, however, use a lot less of the patented Michael Burnham Big Emotion (TM). Like, none of it, in fact.

Edit: okay, I am getting a kick out of Drugged!Burnham. That's a context where large acting choices feel appropriate.

 

[rhllot]

Depends on who you ask. I still seem some who regard that positively and others who fight back against any representation of it.

the answer is that the Soviet Union died. This idea of recreating the federation is something impossible to achieve if we are to go the realistic path the best they can achieve is to create a successor state.