Spoilers Stargirl - Season One Discussion Thread

[11Alive]

I'm just putting forth possible solutions to the questions you raised, because finding solutions to problems is more constructive and satisfying than just complaining about them. I don't insist they must be true, I'm simply open to the possibilities. I offer them to you not for the sake of petty fighting, but in the hopes you can consider them and find satisfaction in them as well.

I don't find satisfaction in excusing inconsistencies, especially poor excuses, like you saying she was weak after a terrible fight. She was strong enough moments before to be leaping and tumbling through the air, even without the staff. And defeated? She just fought back Brainwave with a massive blast after dodging all the tires he threw at her. Pretty darn good for a complete neophyte. I get that you consider yourself a writer and believe it's your responsibility to defend them. To you, "open to the possibilities" seems to mean "that's my story and I'm sticking to it," completely denying the other possibility that they simply messed up.

 

[YLu]

The interesting part is that's not something that was there to begin with, but the result of decades of narrative power-creep. Early days, it was mostly just guys in masks getting into fistfight with gangsters and cartoonish street thugs. A lot (but by no means all) of the mad scientist stuff came out of the silver age IIRC.
I think to a certain extent it's justifiable to gloss it over on the basis that the stuff that the villains came up with is all inherently weaponized and not the kind of thing you want getting out into the wild. It's just odd when the innovation is coming from the heroes.

I'd say it's more about "decade creep." When the characters are existing in the present day, it's easy enough to assume that their inventions are recent enough that they haven't had time to percolate to the general public. But while some characters have the sliding timeline that keeps them in the present, others are fixed to their birth eras, like WWII. And so a character existing in what was once the present eventually becomes a period piece and the reader goes, "Wait, so the technology's been around for *decades*?"

Claims of shared continuity aside, I feel like neither DC or Marvel ever pulled off a truly coherent world. I've often said something similar about how the world of the X-Men just doesn't gell with the rest of the Marvel books.

That, to my mind, is a strength. We're talking countless titles by countless different writers, each concerned with their own themes and atmospheres. Forcing that much diversity of material to cohere would just be too restrictive, in my opinion. You cannot make Captain Carrot and Frank Miller's Batman feel like they're genuinely part of the same world without compromising one or both.

Every once in a while, DC tries to create some system of rules for its magic. Their most recent attempt even involved hiring frickin' Michael Moorcock to design it. And it never pans out; writers don't follow it. Because they have their own stories to tell. What one system of rules could serve John Constantine and Bat-Mite equally well? Better to let each do its own thing.

 

[Reverend]

Yes, comic books were varied in the 40's, 50's and even the 60's,but the tropes of the superhero were firmly established early on. Superman and Batman set many of them. Including the secret identity (borrowed from the Shadow and Green Hornet or the Scarlet Pimpernel if you want to go further back) the kid sidekick and in many cases the wealthy playboy (borrowed from Zorro, the Shadow and once again that damned elusive Pimpernel). Tragic origins involving the death of a loved one (The Lone Ranger). Crazy gimmick villains (Dick Tracy). Toss in a skin tight costume like the Phantom and Flash Gordon and the superhero was born.

Exactly my point. The tropes all have their separate roots in those early comics, but the point of convergence wasn't until later down the line.

That, to my mind, is a strength. We're talking countless titles by countless different writers, each concerned with their own themes and atmospheres. Forcing that much diversity of material to cohere would just be too restrictive, in my opinion. You cannot make Captain Carrot and Frank Miller's Batman feel like they're genuinely part of the same world without compromising one or both.

I did not mean to suggest otherwise. Indeed as I indicated, I'm very much of the opinion that X-Men works better as wholly it's own thing and not one corner of a massive continuity.
Point being that even when they were expressly trying to connect the various titles into a shared universe instead of just loose crossovers, it still was never really all that cohesive or consistent on a larger conceptual scale, nor could it be. So the argument "but in the comics all the shrink rays and time spheres didn't change the 'modern' world" doesn't really hold water.
Probably why DC's multiverse approach was so appealing since it eliminated the need for that kind of coordination. Of course it led to complications of it's own, hence: 'Crisis on Infinite Earths', but there we are.

Every once in a while, DC tries to create some system of rules for its magic. Their most recent attempt even involved hiring frickin' Michael Moorcock to design it. And it never pans out; writers don't follow it. Because they have their own stories to tell. What one system of rules could serve John Constantine and Bat-Mite equally well? Better to let each do its own thing.

Personally I like the Timm/Dini DCAU's approach; in that it's implied that *all* magic derives from a Lovecrafian reality warping pocket universe outside of time and space. It's a very simple way NOT to have to create any rules since it's inherently chaotic and can be expressed any number of ways.

So in regards to the cosmic staff; just saying "it's magic" is enough for me. The same way the Helm of Nabu is magic, or the Lasso of Truth is magic. But if it't not, then I think it's origin does warrant some exploration beyond "some guy figured it out."

 

[Christopher]

I'd say it's more about "decade creep." When the characters are existing in the present day, it's easy enough to assume that their inventions are recent enough that they haven't had time to percolate to the general public. But while some characters have the sliding timeline that keeps them in the present, others are fixed to their birth eras, like WWII. And so a character existing in what was once the present eventually becomes a period piece and the reader goes, "Wait, so the technology's been around for *decades*?"

Right. Writers like Jerry Siegel and Gardner Fox weren't writing for audiences 80 years in the future, they were writing for kids in the present day, kids who were excited by the rapid progress of science and expected it wouldn't be long before miraculous new inventions transformed the world (and indeed, many did, just not in the exact way the stories claimed). They assumed those kids would grow out of reading comics in a few years and the stories would be lost and forgotten. So questions about the long-term consequences of the sci-fi superscience they introduced in their stories were of no concern to them.

 

[YLu]

Point being that even when they were expressly trying to connect the various titles into a shared universe instead of just loose crossovers, it still was never really all that cohesive or consistent on a larger conceptual scale, nor could it be. So the argument "but in the comics all the shrink rays and time spheres didn't change the 'modern' world" doesn't really hold water.
Probably why DC's multiverse approach was so appealing since it eliminated the need for that kind of coordination. Of course it led to complications of it's own, hence: 'Crisis on Infinite Earths', but there we are.

I would say this technology discrepancy would exist even without the need for coordination, though. It doesn't just come from Superman existing alongside Gotham City. It comes from Superman existing alongside Metropolis, which because of the nature of the genre will not (and I'd argue should not) deviate too far from the real world, temporary story-arcs notwithstanding.

Marvel made a big deal about how it depicted "the world outside your window," and most of the superhero genre ended up following suit.

Right. Writers like Jerry Siegel and Gardner Fox weren't writing for audiences 80 years in the future, they were writing for kids in the present day, kids who were excited by the rapid progress of science and expected it wouldn't be long before miraculous new inventions transformed the world (and indeed, many did, just not in the exact way the stories claimed). They assumed those kids would grow out of reading comics in a few years and the stories would be lost and forgotten. So questions about the long-term consequences of the sci-fi superscience they introduced in their stories were of no concern to them.

Yeah. HG Wells didn't worry about how absurd a 19th century Englishman inventing a time machine would one day seem.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah. HG Wells didn't worry about how absurd a 19th century Englishman inventing a time machine would one day seem.

Nor would he have been able to predict whether it would be absurd, because there's no way to know in advance how rapidly or slowly a given field of science might advance. Look at all the '40s and '50s SF that predicted we'd have interstellar hyperdrive by 2020 but would still be using room-sized computers with vacuum tubes and punch cards.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah. HG Wells didn't worry about how absurd a 19th century Englishman inventing a time machine would one day seem.

And yet when one is adapting 'The Time Machine' for a modern audience, at least *some* attempt is made to align the story more for modern audiences. Indeed that's exactly what they did...twice!
The same should be true of a modern adaptation of a comic set in a modern day analogue world.

Say for example one were to write a sequel of sorts to 'The Time Machine' where a character in the modern day finds The Time Traveller's blueprints, notes and The Narrator's diary of from the events in the book. Logically the discovery of this ought to be met with some degree of incredulity. You don't necessarily have to explain it, but at least hang a lantern on it.

That's pretty much the situation this show is presenting, so I'd like for the thing with Ted Knight and the origin of the staff be explored in a little more detail at some point.

 

[Greg Cox]

Nor would he have been able to predict whether it would be absurd, because there's no way to know in advance how rapidly or slowly a given field of science might advance. Look at all the '40s and '50s SF that predicted we'd have interstellar hyperdrive by 2020 but would still be using room-sized computers with vacuum tubes and punch cards.

And slide-rules and sexism.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

And slide-rules and sexism.

Slide-rules and Sexism sounds like it could be a tabletop RPG about 40s/50s SF.

 

[thribs]

That was cold of Icicle (pun intended). I suppose it needed to be done. The Wizard has obviously lost his edge.
Part of me hopes that the ISA slaughters her recruits. It shouldn’t be that easy.

 

[Christopher]

I find Icicle's actions kind of gratuitous. I thought he killed Wizard's son in order to motivate him to focus on the work, or to commit to developing the powers he'd failed to develop, but then he just went and killed the Wizard hours later. So what was the point?

Also, not great that STRIPE is the one who gets to pull off the classic superhero school-bus-on-bridge rescue, and all Stargirl does is to provide visual cover. That would've been a cool public hero debut for Stargirl, though admittedly I'm not sure her power set includes anything that could move a school bus around. Still, she could've at least engaged Icicle while STRIPE dealt with the bus. I think fighting the supervillain was more important than not being seen, considering that nobody could've seen their faces anyway.

Mike (Pat's son) was really annoying this week. Pat's really bad at getting his kids to behave, isn't he? And do they even have paper routes anymore? I guess there are still some print newspapers out there, and Blue Valley's the kind of old-fashioned town that would still have one, economy permitting.

This episode ran about 44 minutes and change on DC Universe, so I figure there will be only minor cuts for The CW, maybe 3 minutes' worth.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Mike (Pat's son) was really annoying this week.

I'm pretty sure that's been Mike's "job description" since back on Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E., if not his early cameos in Infinity Inc.

 

[Christopher]

I'm pretty sure that's been Mike's "job description" since back on Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E., if not his early cameos in Infinity Inc.

Well, they overdo it.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

I find Icicle's actions kind of gratuitous. I thought he killed Wizard's son in order to motivate him to focus on the work, or to commit to developing the powers he'd failed to develop, but then he just went and killed the Wizard hours later. So what was the point?

The Wand?! He talked earlier that the Wizard never used it to its full potential, but he kept it hidden in a safe, so Icicle had to provoke him enough to take it out.

 

[Christopher]

The Wand?! He talked earlier that the Wizard never used it to its full potential, but he kept it hidden in a safe, so Icicle had to provoke him enough to take it out.

Oh. That kind of makes sense. Still, couldn't he have just frozen the safe and broken it open that way? (Captain Cold did that once in the 1990 Flash series.)

So if the Wizard and his son are both kaput, are there any other Earth-2/JSA/Infinity Inc. villains that could take over as the magic-using member of the Injustice Society?

 

[Reverend]

I'll admit that was an unexpected turn. First it looks like they were heading in a Quake/Spoiler "child of a villain becomes a hero" route; then they just straight up merc both him and the old man. Only 3 episodes in and this show is certainly burning through villains fast...

While I dig how the portraits of the old JSA all look like Alex Ross painting...in universe it feels weird since you know they'd all have to pose like that with the dramatic lighting and a long exposure camera...and that they made larger than life sized blow-ups and hung them up where they (and only they) all meet. Kinda feels like a weird ego trip.
I guess STRIPE could ahve done most of that after the fact as a memorial...but that still feels a little weird.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Oh. That kind of makes sense. Still, couldn't he have just frozen the safe and broken it open that way? (Captain Cold did that once in the 1990 Flash series.)

So if the Wizard and his son are both kaput, are there any other Earth-2/JSA/Infinity Inc. villains that could take over as the magic-using member of the Injustice Society?

I dug through my old 'Who's Who' comics and came up with 'Wotan', who was Dr. Fate's primary nemesis, although he might be a little too powerful. Since I haven't see the current episode, is Dr. Fate pictured in the photograph that Pat Dugan keeps?

 

[Christopher]

Since I haven't see the current episode, is Dr. Fate pictured in the photograph that Pat Dugan keeps?

I believe so, yes, and he's also on one of the banners at the JSA headquarters.

I think that makes the third Helm of Nabu we've seen in the Crisis multiverse, after the one worn by Smallville's Dr. Fate (Earth-167) and the one glimpsed in Constantine's Atlanta base of operations in Constantine (Earth-1).

 

[thribs]

I find Icicle's actions kind of gratuitous. I thought he killed Wizard's son in order to motivate him to focus on the work, or to commit to developing the powers he'd failed to develop, but then he just went and killed the Wizard hours later. So what was the point?

Also, not great that STRIPE is the one who gets to pull off the classic superhero school-bus-on-bridge rescue, and all Stargirl does is to provide visual cover. That would've been a cool public hero debut for Stargirl, though admittedly I'm not sure her power set includes anything that could move a school bus around. Still, she could've at least engaged Icicle while STRIPE dealt with the bus. I think fighting the supervillain was more important than not being seen, considering that nobody could've seen their faces anyway.

Mike (Pat's son) was really annoying this week. Pat's really bad at getting his kids to behave, isn't he? And do they even have paper routes anymore? I guess there are still some print newspapers out there, and Blue Valley's the kind of old-fashioned town that would still have one, economy permitting.

This episode ran about 44 minutes and change on DC Universe, so I figure there will be only minor cuts for The CW, maybe 3 minutes' worth.

Yeah. I thought that as well. He would blame his death on Stargirl to rally Stick Guy to his cause but I think he simply didn’t think his heart was in it anymore I thought it would be safer to get rid of him, using his son as a way to do so.
I don’t mind the son. I think his acts rather appropriately for someone his age. I am curious on where he came from. Was he married before? Who is the mum?

 

[CorporalClegg]

This is the weakest episode of the three for me so far. I felt like, while there was a lot going on, not much really happened. It's a 'set-up' episode - a trend of the binge era for which I'm quickly growing tired.

The DC-iconic school bus scene felt really anticlimatic, despite there being a death.

Also, when the Teddybears started playing, I half expected Shazam to pop out of the bushes.

I find Icicle's actions kind of gratuitous.

I agree. I initially thought that this was all meant as set-up for Cynthia Evans's character, especially after the seemingly random goo-goo eyes she was making at Pat last week. But I just checked IMDB and she's only credited for three episodes.

Well, they overdo it.

Agree here too. I've never subscribed to the "Because comics; therefore screen" method. He might work as a character for a comic book story (Again, I don't know anything about them.), but as a TV character, he falls completely flat - both conceptually and actually.