Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

[Doc Mugatu]

Janeway isn't close to Picard though. She had one tiny scene with him in Nemesis. … I agree that the script felt like it was written for Janeway.

Star Trek, from TNG on, has a pretty established record of strong women admirals. Even pre-dating Janeway. So I can't say I felt the scene was particularly Janeway-esque.

Why did the Commodore have to be a Vulcan? If we are having characters doing shady things that doesn't jive with Vulcan ideals, especially the IDIC on her desk. I don't think any series has done the Vulcans right outside of Spock and Tuvok.

Okay, I saw the IDIC pendant in the foreground but still thought the commodore was a Romulan. That does alter my opinion a bit and I agree it is a demerit. One of Enterprise's biggest sins, as I saw it, was the deconstructing of the Vulcans. In episode 2 of The Ready Room they do a package on the Romulan make-up and the designer says "It can go elvish real quick." My thought was always, "Exactly right!" In my imagination the Elves left middle-Earth and traveled to the planet Vulcan and colonized it. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) was every bit as cool as Legolas (Orlando Bloom) in my book.

 

[Ghel]

Starfleet crawling with infiltrators...?
I kinda hoped that trope was over and done with.
It was my belief that Picard and his crew represented the best of both humanity and the fleet but this show seems intent on portraying Picard as an outlier,the only moral man in a universe of bastardry.

I don't think that the admiral that chewed Picard out was immoral or an infiltrator. From her perspective, Picard wan't alone in wanting to rescue the Romulans. Starfleet was willing to do so even at the risk of potentially losing 14 member worlds. However, the attack on Mars left Starfleet without the majority of its rescue fleet AND one of it's major shipyards. Although they wanted to help, Starfleet no longer had the means to help without leaving themselves in a very vulnerable position. Those in command of Starfleet would have to choose where to allocate the remaining resources.
As leader of the rescue fleet, not only does Picard not care, but he goes so far as to question everyone else's integrity and even resigns his commission.
After being retired for 20 years, this guy comes waltzing into her office (only a few days after publicly questioning Starfleet's morality again) asking for a ship, crew, and reinstatement to at least Captain. Imagining quitting any job, publicly humiliating upper management, and then--after 20 years--finding the one person you used to work with and expecting your job back.

The Vulcan/Romulan Commodore on the other hand. . .

 

[Doc Mugatu]

But you can't build nuclear weapons with reactor grade fuel. It just won't work. So, if someone really wanted to ban nuclear weapons but keep nuclear power, it's totally possible to do so.

I think you need to re-read what it is I said. I started off by saying, "Sure you can." It is possible. an infinity of things are possible. Fact is it hasn't happened. Even before the terminating pre-existing agreements and U.N. accords countries were fudging on them.

No. Theree was never any fear among physicists about the Earth being destroyed. That storyline came about by the average joe who heard "black holes at the LHC" and didn't understand the whole picture.

Check again. There were a few who voiced concerned. Just as there are some in the field of science who disbelieve man plays a significant role in global warming. There is always an outlier. Some nutty. Some looking for publicity. Some because of personal profit. Now, if you want to say "credible" physicist, I'll agree. In any event, it all still supports my position that Starfleet, being primarily a scientific organization, would not let fear resulting from one incident ban an entire field of scientific research. That's lunacy. There are always mishaps. Look at the space program in both the USSR and USA with neither letting them stop their progress. Look at the reports of North Korea weapons development.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I think you need to re-read what it is I said. I started off by saying, "Sure you can." It is possible. an infinity of things are possible. Fact is it hasn't happened.

I'm not talking about governments doing end-runs around treaties and doing something they're not supposed to. I'm saying that a nuclear weapons cannot be built with reactor-grade material. The runaway chain reaction needed to produce an explosion simply cannot be achieved.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Starfleet crawling with infiltrators...?
I kinda hoped that trope was over and done with.
It was my belief that Picard and his crew represented the best of both humanity and the fleet but this show seems intent on portraying Picard as an outlier,the only moral man in a universe of bastardry.

I kind of hoped the same thing. One thing that can be said, however, is that corruption is always the number one enemy of any and all institutions and hierarchies. Just wish it wasn't so many back-to-back stories. A series or movie can either reflect the reality of their times in which they are made or their dreams. I am all for Star Trek telling a variety of stories but for them to please remember that Star Trek, at it's best and most enduring, has always primarily appealed to our dreams rather than nightmares. These days, well, cynicism and selfishness is everywhere. What we need most is our beacon of hope, inspiration, and vision.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I'm not talking about governments doing end-runs around treaties and doing something they're not supposed to. I'm saying that a nuclear weapons cannot be built with reactor-grade material. The runaway chain reaction needed to produce an explosion simply cannot be achieved.

Sorry, if that's your entire point then it is meaningless.

 

[fireproof78]

In Into Darkness the Klingons are an unknown threat

Hardly unknown. They were already being monitored by the Federation and Starfleet in ST 09, since Uhura picked up the destruction of 47 ships, as well as the fact that Klingons are used in the Kobyashi Maru test. Marcus states this:
MARCUS: All-out war with the Klingons is inevitable, Mister Kirk. If you ask me, it's already begun. Since we first learned of their existence, the Klingon Empire has conquered and occupied
two planets that we know of and fired on our ships half a dozen times. They are coming our way.

The Discovery style war was coming.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Hardly unknown. They were already being monitored by the Federation and Starfleet in ST 09, since Uhura picked up the destruction of 47 ships, as well as the fact that Klingons are used in the Kobyashi Maru test. Marcus states this:
MARCUS: All-out war with the Klingons is inevitable, Mister Kirk. If you ask me, it's already begun. Since we first learned of their existence, the Klingon Empire has conquered and occupied
two planets that we know of and fired on our ships half a dozen times. They are coming our way.

The Discovery style war was coming.

The point is that there was no war in 2256-7 as there was in Discovery. They're different and incompatible continuities.

 

[Greg Cox]

Iconic ship to most people

Yes! That's me exactly. If it looks like that, it's the Enterprise. The rest is just bells and whistles and has nothing to do with getting caught up in the story.

 

[Longinus]

Yes! That's me exactly. If it looks like that, it's the Enterprise. The rest is just bells and whistles and has nothing to do with getting caught up in the story.

That is fine, but a lot of people do not see things that way.

 

[fireproof78]

The point is that there was no war in 2256-7 as there was in Discovery. They're different and incompatible continuities.

You are quite right, yes.

Yes! That's me exactly. If it looks like that, it's the Enterprise. The rest is just bells and whistles and has nothing to do with getting caught up in the story.

Indeed. And, I think, we get caught up in minutia and miss the story bits. Which, if you're not invested in the story or the characters then that makes sense.

But, I do wonder if people are watching PIC and immediately throw up their hands in frustration of the brief glimpse of the Discoprise?

 

[Crewman6]

I generally find him to be too harsh on episodes that are setting things up. I believe he's harsher on them now than he was in 1999 with DS9's "Penumbra", "'Til Death Do Us Part", and "Strange Bedfellows". I think there's some bias on his part. I feel "Maps and Symbols" is better than two-and-a-half stars. 2.5 stars is what I think of as "middle of the road". I gave it an 8/10, which would be the equivalent of 3 stars. It got me more interested in the "world" of 2399. "Middle of the road" doesn't get me more interested in anything.

2.5 stars is being generous. It's not a good episode. Lots of dumb tecnobabble, lots of REALLY dumb mythology-making. Only a couple of truly good scenes, like the one with his old doctor friend. And really loose plotting which only moves the story forward in tiny increments. Picard's narrative has only moved forward about a half step since the end of the last episode and it's not balanced out by much else.

The much talked-about admiral scene is similar to the interview in that it's just combative for its own sake while sacrificing any real logic.

It was just more table setting and I'm very eager for the show to get on with it.

 

[cooleddie74]

The point is that there was no war in 2256-7 as there was in Discovery. They're different and incompatible continuities.

Not to mention the differences in the Klingon appearances are markedly different, the nostrils and ears notwithstanding.

 

[Longinus]

Indeed. And, I think, we get caught up in minutia and miss the story bits. Which, if you're not invested in the story or the characters then that makes sense.

It is not even that. I just notice this sort of things. Like anachronisms in a period drama. I can't really turn it off. Doesn't really ruin the enjoyement of things, but such things mildly bother me.

But, I do wonder if people are watching PIC and immediately throw up their hands in frustration of the brief glimpse of the Discoprise?

No, though it annoyed me a little bit. I would have preferred them to either show the original, the refit or no the Connie at all.

 

[Greg Cox]

One of Enterprise's biggest sins, as I saw it, was the deconstructing of the Vulcans. .

Hah. I remembering rebutting that complaint back in the ENTERPRISE days.

Again, we've had shady Vulcans since the first time we saw them in "Amok Time." And need I mention Valeris?

We've seen Vulcans falling short of their ideals since Day One, pretty much. That's not an ENTERPRISE thing or a PICARD thing, that's a TOS thing. They were never meant to be flawless role models.

"Ideals," practically by definition, are what a culture aspires to, not the norm.

 

[Hythlodeus]

That is fine, but a lot of people do not see things that way.

but most do. especially in the GA

 

[Crewman6]

Hah. I remembering objecting to that concern way back in the ENTERPRISE days.

Again, we've had shady Vulcans since the first time we saw them in "Amok Time." And need I mention Valeris

Vulcans have falling short of their ideals since Day One, pretty much. That's not an ENTERPRISE or PICARD thing, that's a TOS thing. They were never meant to be flawless role models.

"Ideals," practically by definition, are what a culture aspires to, not the norm.

We assume Vulcans are honorable and honest because Spock is our entry point and he's a hero character who embodies those qualities. But he's also overcompensating due to his insecurities about being half-Vulcan, due to his disapproving father and due to feeling isolated among humans. But it's perfectly okay to realize that many Vulcans fail to live up to these standards some of the time.

We assume Klingons are honorable because Worf is our entry point and he's a hero character who embodies those qualities. But he's also overcompensating due to the fact that he was largely raised by humans, isolated from his people, and feels caught between humanity and his Klingon nature. But it's perfectly okay to realize that many (most) other Klingons are dicks.

 

[Lord Garth]

Hah. I remembering rebutting that complaint back in the ENTERPRISE days.

Again, we've had shady Vulcans since the first time we saw them in "Amok Time." And need I mention Valeris?

We've seen Vulcans falling short of their ideals since Day One, pretty much. That's not an ENTERPRISE or PICARD thing, that's a TOS thing. They were never meant to be flawless role models.

"Ideals," practically by definition, are what a culture aspires to, not the norm.

Yup. It's hard to be the "best" when everyone else is the best too.

 

[fireproof78]

It is not even that. I just notice this sort of things. Like anachronisms in a period drama. I can't really turn it off. Doesn't really ruin the enjoyement of things, but such things mildly bother me.
No, though it annoyed me a little bit. I would have preferred them to either show the original, the refit or no the Connie at all.

I appreciate the clarification. I guess that's the difference for me. Like, in "The Witcher" they are using language I would consider highly anachronistic for the setting but eventually it moves aside and I'm more engaged with the world. Star Trek kind of already has that buy in for me so such anachronisms don't stand out as much.

Again, mileage will definitely vary.

 

[Longinus]

I appreciate the clarification. I guess that's the difference for me. Like, in "The Witcher" they are using language I would consider highly anachronistic for the setting but eventually it moves aside and I'm more engaged with the world. Star Trek kind of already has that buy in for me so such anachronisms don't stand out as much.

Overtly modern language was one of the things that bothered me in Witcher, as much as I enjoyed it otherwise.