Marvel films, it's time for a Black female lead

[Grendelsbayne]

Yeah, like I said...none of the solo series for any X-Man worked for me. Including X-Man.

As as result of this convo I went and signed up for unlimited just now, three issues into Mr and Mrs X. It kind of proves both our arguments really (I didn’t even start with suggesting Gambit alone was more popular than Storm...Gambit *and* Rogue.) and is enjoyable, even if it’s full of the off-world stuff I wasn’t into with the Uncanny X Friends.

Also..gambit and rogue are married now...I am out of the loop a little while and everyone starts getting delusions of grandeur.

I think Mr and Mrs X sounds interesting (as well as this new Powers of X/House of X thing), but since I decided (like two years ago almost by now) to read the whole history of the X-men through start to finish, I've put all the new stuff on hold so I can catch up to it naturally. Just made it through Zero Tolerance and read the Hunt for Xavier this morning, so I'm getting closer, but it'll probably still be several months, maybe longer before I actually start closing in on the really recent stuff.

How bad was X-Man, btw? Because I never read it back in the day. In my reread, I thought the AoA part of X-Man was fantastic and I was really looking forward to seeing this character fall to Earth in the main marvel universe as a sort of confused Marvel Superman, but the X-Man series is more missing issues than available ones on MU which suggest a rather *extreme* impopularity. The available issues and crossover appearances have given me a brief impression a character never really allowed to grow out of his impulse control/trust issues and constantly forced back into the same mold of doing dumb shit for no reason and then having to have all the other characters clean up after him, but a part of me still hopes there might have been more in there if i could only read the whole thing.

 

[Pingfah]

It really is depressing to see the same handwringing justifications for suppressing diversity trotted out thread after thread.

There are countless black actresses capable of leading a Marvel movie, the only question is why nobody is giving them those roles even though the audiences are ready and waiting. Fact is, they are being actively denied them. If you seek to stand in the way of ending such discriminatory practices because it threatens your fragile white ego, you are either a racist, or a deeply self centred and ignorant person.

 

[jaime]

I think Mr and Mrs X sounds interesting (as well as this new Powers of X/House of X thing), but since I decided (like two years ago almost by now) to read the whole history of the X-men through start to finish, I've put all the new stuff on hold so I can catch up to it naturally. Just made it through Zero Tolerance and read the Hunt for Xavier this morning, so I'm getting closer, but it'll probably still be several months, maybe longer before I actually start closing in on the really recent stuff.

How bad was X-Man, btw? Because I never read it back in the day. In my reread, I thought the AoA part of X-Man was fantastic and I was really looking forward to seeing this character fall to Earth in the main marvel universe as a sort of confused Marvel Superman, but the X-Man series is more missing issues than available ones on MU which suggest a rather *extreme* impopularity. The available issues and crossover appearances have given me a brief impression a character never really allowed to grow out of his impulse control/trust issues and constantly forced back into the same mold of doing dumb shit for no reason and then having to have all the other characters clean up after him, but a part of me still hopes there might have been more in there if i could only read the whole thing.

You are roughly in the middle of my big time comics/x-men era now. (Still pissed at my godfather for never returning my onslaught comics I leant to him...my bad for lending I suppose.)
I literally never read X-Man. I wasn’t a Cable fan, and he’s tied into that (obvs) and I never liked the artwork. I can’t comment on the actual quality, because it just never interested me. I read the core X-books, most of the ones needed in crossovers, but not all, and followed the characters I liked if they went off on solo etc books (Psylocke and Angel miniseries is around my house somewhere....)
I didn’t even read the other Marvel heroes, apart from a brief look at Fantastic Four during heroes return, and I think issue 1 of Thor and Daredevil around that time. I just wasn’t interested in Super Dude Does It Alone books. Never read Deadpool either.
Didn’t touch DC after giving up on Supes, Bats and the solo Robin books in early nineties. This was when I was randomly buying in Newsagents, and post the Batman interest that afflicted my generation because of West and Keaton in the eighties.

I know X-Man was big again recently (that nineties nostalgia market is big people) in one of the collections I read where he goes all Mutant Jesus. Again.

For reference, I stopped in 2002ish... Gen X had been cancelled, and I really disliked the artwork and tone of the Quitely run in the post-movie-success zone. I was also unemployed xD. I had a very brief return a few years later for X-Treme X-Men and X-Force, but drifted off.

 

[jaime]

It really is depressing to see the same handwringing justifications for suppressing diversity trotted out thread after thread.

There are countless black actresses capable of leading a Marvel movie, the only question is why nobody is giving them those roles even though the audiences are ready and waiting. Fact is, they are being actively denied them. If you seek to stand in the way of ending such discriminatory practices because it threatens your fragile white ego, you are either a racist, or a deeply self centred and ignorant person.

One of the problems is adapting to screen..if you are looking to move a popular character from page-space to screen space, you are looking to make as few changes as possible. More minor or supporting characters? Easier, but some of those have a fan base too.
In terms of diversity, it’s a shame the New Mutants thing never panned out. That would have seen some leads you really aren’t used to getting, including a Native American. But..we don’t talk about that in casting discussions right?
Or..for preference, a proper Gen X movie, which would give you sino-American, African-American, Londoner, south seas islander, Irish, southern states American, and inner city Latino,...erm wherever Emma Frost is from (I can never make my mind up if it’s england or New England in my memory) and Black European..Monaco I think. M was rich. Two of those, possibly three, but you have to paint one red for a while because Penny. I think that’s everyone. It’s been a while.

Basically, let’s not pretend Marvel comics weren’t already fairly diverse, but you people (not necessarily anyone here, but it feels like a you people moment) didn’t pay any attention unless it was already famous and possibly already been on screen.

If you aren’t remotely interested in moving a fan base between mediums, you can do what you like...or you can go out there with some of the more esoteric stuff, which is what they did with Guardians of the Galaxy, and totally reworked it.

While I am on a soap box about how to get diversity in your comics movies without pissing anyone off, just gonna trip outside of Marvel and back to my youth again, and wonder why no-one has picked up Strangers In Paradise for Netflix. There’s your goldmine right there for comic book adaptation brownie points. (Brownie points as in girl guide stuff, before a lack of knowledge leads to another accusation of deep down we all wanna be Nazis accusations.)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Googling phase 4...

Spoiler

Awkwafina from Oceans 8, Crazy Rich Asians is "unnamed person" in Master of Kung-Fun, a comic I know almost zero about. Maybe she's playing gay?

Teyonah Parris as Monica Rambeau, has third billing in "WandaVision" so there's a black woman, that is totally going places, especially if she is also calling herself Captain Marvel.

No black female lesbian leads.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

One of the problems is adapting to screen..if you are looking to move a popular character from page-space to screen space, you are looking to make as few changes as possible. More minor or supporting characters? Easier, but some of those have a fan base too.
In terms of diversity, it’s a shame the New Mutants thing never panned out. That would have seen some leads you really aren’t used to getting, including a Native American. But..we don’t talk about that in casting discussions right?
Or..for preference, a proper Gen X movie, which would give you sino-American, African-American, Londoner, south seas islander, Irish, southern states American, and inner city Latino,...erm wherever Emma Frost is from (I can never make my mind up if it’s england or New England in my memory) and Black European..Monaco I think. M was rich. Two of those, possibly three, but you have to paint one red for a while because Penny. I think that’s everyone. It’s been a while.

Basically, let’s not pretend Marvel comics weren’t already fairly diverse, but you people (not necessarily anyone here, but it feels like a you people moment) didn’t pay any attention unless it was already famous and possibly already been on screen.

If you aren’t remotely interested in moving a fan base between mediums, you can do what you like...or you can go out there with some of the more esoteric stuff, which is what they did with Guardians of the Galaxy, and totally reworked it.

While I am on a soap box about how to get diversity in your comics movies without pissing anyone off, just gonna trip outside of Marvel and back to my youth again, and wonder why no-one has picked up Strangers In Paradise for Netflix. There’s your goldmine right there for comic book adaptation brownie points. (Brownie points as in girl guide stuff, before a lack of knowledge leads to another accusation of deep down we all wanna be Nazis accusations.)

People don't talk much about Gen X or the New Mutants because everyone knows that this current iteration of the X-Men is going to be part of the MCU. You might have something of a point in there if we were just talking about some random x-branded movies, but the story constraints of the MCU simply don't facilitate the idea of introducing the X-men and also all the junior x-men and also all the junior junior x-men all at the same time. Those teams need some sense of history to work the way they did in the comics. So something else will have to lead at the start. There's nothing wrong with the idea of Storm doing that (though there can be other ways, too).

Also, the opinion that making changes in adaptations will automatically lead to pissed off fans and failure doesn't stack with the history of the MCU. Iron Man rewrote the character's personality. Ant-man/Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Vision were all changed in various significant ways. Valkyrie is a totally different character from the traditional 'Valkyrie', yet one of the most popular MCU sidekicks there is (so popular, a lot of people want her to stop being a sidekick and get her own movie).

Also, the X-men is a series that's literally about diversity. The mutant problem is a civil rights analogy and always has been. It's understandable that stories written in the 60s and 70s would have difficulty tapping the full potential of that subject without coding things and making the main stars look mostly 'normal', but making a series about that kind of material that doesn't visually celebrate actual diversity, including in the cast, is a recipe for a pr disaster in the modern world. One that could dwarf the angry fans you think will appear. So even if we hypothetically get those Gen X/New Mutants films, that doesn't automatically absolve the main X-men from doing a better job showcasing a more diverse cast, too.

 

[jaime]

People don't talk much about Gen X or the New Mutants because everyone knows that this current iteration of the X-Men is going to be part of the MCU. You might have something of a point in there if we were just talking about some random x-branded movies, but the story constraints of the MCU simply don't facilitate the idea of introducing the X-men and also all the junior x-men and also all the junior junior x-men all at the same time. Those teams need some sense of history to work the way they did in the comics. So something else will have to lead at the start. There's nothing wrong with the idea of Storm doing that (though there can be other ways, too).

Also, the opinion that making changes in adaptations will automatically lead to pissed off fans and failure doesn't stack with the history of the MCU. Iron Man rewrote the character's personality. Ant-man/Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Vision were all changed in various significant ways. Valkyrie is a totally different character from the traditional 'Valkyrie', yet one of the most popular MCU sidekicks there is (so popular, a lot of people want her to stop being a sidekick and get her own movie).

Also, the X-men is a series that's literally about diversity. The mutant problem is a civil rights analogy and always has been. It's understandable that stories written in the 60s and 70s would have difficulty tapping the full potential of that subject without coding things and making the main stars look mostly 'normal', but making a series about that kind of material that doesn't visually celebrate actual diversity, including in the cast, is a recipe for a pr disaster in the modern world. One that could dwarf the angry fans you think will appear. So even if we hypothetically get those Gen X/New Mutants films, that doesn't automatically absolve the main X-men from doing a better job showcasing a more diverse cast, too.

Most of the changes didn’t piss people off because they were third tier characters (even though they had their fan base) They did make people giggle a bit sometimes....Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch and the dancing on the head of a pin to strip them of their X-Men links.
I don’t think Iron Man’s personality was so big a change, the core character descriptors are all the same...it’s just Bobby D doing his thing and updating to fit in the modern era the films are set in. If they had cast Denzel Washington, I can imagine there being a little bit of a ripple, but no-one much minded SLJ as Nick Fury, beacause (a) it’s SLJ, (b) Nick Fury ain’t top drawer and (c) ultimates.
Thing is, Marvel didn’t have their most popular properties in their film rights portfolio when they started the MCU.

In term of diversity in the X-films etc...yeah, I kind of hear it, but it goes back to the key problem that film-makers and to an extent audiences are only interested in the big names. Whothisface Trek fan who’s name eludes me...Singer...was only interested in his personal faves when that film series started, and from the get-go he made a mess of things that would have helped further down the line (making Rogue a teen etc really messes with introducing the then popular...as mentioned XD....Gambit. All the popular X-Men of that time, are difficult to work in the world he set up with that film) and really handled too many as token appearances. (Jubilee, the viewpoint character for the extremely popular cartoon series that really got the ball rolling on the films....hence the theme tune...is a bit part that changes actress or gets cut or both almost every time out the gate.) They knew the popular characters of the time, but almost every time they work one in, they muffed it up and kept defaulting to sixties and seventies characters...probably to do with the age of Singer and co. That’s why we get mere minutes of the characters who were relevant when the films actually started being made....Gambit, Bishop, Jubilee, Psylocke....and ages with the older line up. Even then, the makers don’t know what to do with them...Storm is just side character, Nightcrawler a one off appearance. It’s telling the most recent character for them is Quicksilver.
Outside of that is Rogue of course....who they then cut from DoFP!
Everyone who isn’t the Professor, Magneto, Wolverine, or at a real push, Jean Grey (and later mystique because Lawrence blew up) is poorly served in those films.
And I have purchased every last one because hey...it’s still X-Men.
It’s telling that Deadpool...a comic character I can’t stand...is actually doing better at having X-Men movies than the X-Men themselves. Colossus is great in those. This probably because they aren’t beholden to that 1960s core.

X-Men is huge (or was when the films started) but they cocked its setup and then kept doing so. They should have maybe just gone with Giant Sized X-Men team as their base, or the nineties teams (very much the nineties teams, given when the first film came out) and gone from there. They wouldn’t even have had to try for their diversity quotas later if they had done that, because as you and I are discussing, X-Men has it’s diversity baked in from the late seventies onwards.

In short I blame Singer and execs, and the crazy love for Dark Phoenix era Jean. The films are always one step forwards, two back. Which is crazy, given how stupidly popular X-Books were at the end of the last millennium when the films started.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Gilgamesh, an authentic hero from Greek mythology, who just by coincidence is also an eternal, in the mcu, is being played by a guy from South Korea.

Gilgamesh was a Sumerian king, from Mesopotamian mythology, not Greek, and his city-state Uruk was located in what is now Iraq. He was referrenced, though, in Greek mythology, but never as Greek.

Not as Southeast-Asian, either, though.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Gilgamesh, an authentic hero from Greek mythology,

Mesopotamian.

 

[dahj]

Gilgamesh, a king. At Uruk.

 

[Armus]

Assyrian sculpture of Gilgamesh.

There was a book series about him.

 

[jaime]

Assyrian sculpture of Gilgamesh.

There was a book series about him.

Look at where that kitties claws are at. And he ain’t even wincing. This is what happens when your drinking buddy is a Neanderthal with a name like Enkidu.

On the other hand, maybe this was sculpted of the moment he named his city, and it’s how we got it’s name.

I name this city....UR!

 

[Nyotarules]

No one is saying that white males shouldn’t be represented. That seems to be a delusion that keeps coming up.

This is because western society has never taught little white boys to share until now, the universe is always their oyster, they were/are the default human.

This is pretty sad times we are living in where we are even talking about this at all.. movies should come out, entertain us, and be done. When you can include more people of races and genders in an organic way instead of force feeding it to us (Trek was great at this in its heyday) that is fine.

I would consider spending the last 90 odd years having mainly white male only leads in major roles as forcefeeding a racial stereotyope to the public.

How will white men ever recover from this loss?

Start another world war? Its one of their talents...

 

[Gov Kodos]

This is because western society has never taught little white boys to share until now, the universe is always their oyster, they were/are the default human.

Share? That's sounds like socialist talk.


]

I would consider spending the last 90 odd years having mainly white male only leads in major roles as forcefeeding a racial stereotyope to the public.

Heh, you forgot gender, there. See, if you can forget the women it's only one more step to accept the color.

Start another world war? Its one of their talents...

More a gift, really. Pretty good at taking stuff from non-white people, too. Heck, whole continents.[/QUOTE]

 

[jaime]

This is because western society has never taught little white boys to share until now, the universe is always their oyster, they were/are the default human.


I would consider spending the last 90 odd years having mainly white male only leads in major roles as forcefeeding a racial stereotyope to the public.

Start another world war? Its one of their talents...

Share? That's sounds like socialist talk.


]

Heh, you forgot gender, there. See, if you can forget the women it's only one more step to accept the color.



More a gift, really. Pretty good at taking stuff from non-white people, too. Heck, whole continents.

[/QUOTE]

A guy I worked with once was jumped. Had his minidisc player nicked. Me and another colleague took him in the pub...you know, cheer him up after the shock and whatnot. He was understandably angry. Went off on one about Black people, because his assailant was a black bloke.
How they were all lazy, in their flat’s given to them by the council, how they were all thieves...you know the kind of stuff.
Then he came to his senses and realised who was talking to. My other colleague, the one who had bought the drinks, was Black British you see.
So of course this other bloke said, of course he did, ‘not you mate, you’re one of the alright ones.’
My colleague finished his drink and quietly left. I finished mine, told the bloke I was sorry he got jumped, but his was being a rascist dick. Then I joined my mate outside and we had a chat as we wandered off for a kebab and a bus home to our council flats.

I wonder then, if the fact I told the rascist he was being a dick, and considering my skin colour...
Does that make me one of the alright ones?

 

[Nyotarules]

Share? That's sounds like socialist talk.

If you want capitalist talk - little white boys were/are taught to only entertain other little white boys for financial gain

Heh, you forgot gender, there. See, if you can forget the women it's only one more step to accept the color.

I guess I could always blame their mothers since they are the major parental influence

More a gift, really. Pretty good at taking stuff from non-white people, too. Heck, whole continents.

yes another gift, in the Star Trek universe its called 'starting a colony on Cestus III'

 

[Nyotarules]

Then he came to his senses and realised who was talking to. My other colleague, the one who had bought the drinks, was Black British you see.
So of course this other bloke said, of course he did, ‘not you mate, you’re one of the alright ones.’

AKA How to tell my European son in law or daughter in law that I voted BREXIT

 

[jaime]

AKA How to tell my European son in law or daughter in law that I voted BREXIT

As the husband of a European, and as someone whose parents and probably entire family voted Brexit I agree.


I am somewhat disappointed you didn’t get the point of me sharing that anecdote however.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

This is because western society has never taught little white boys to share until now, the universe is always their oyster, they were/are the default human.


I would consider spending the last 90 odd years having mainly white male only leads in major roles as forcefeeding a racial stereotyope to the public.

Start another world war? Its one of their talents...

but the idea of casting people based on their race or gender.. and THAT is the reason.. is not any less wrong. It's, at best. overcorrecting.

I always believed for example, and I might get hate from this but who cares, that the original SW film was great because the characters fit into the archetypes, the hero, the old mentor, the rogue, the damsel. Like a pulpy sci fi comic book that kids read in the 40s. I would be fine with Finn if they actually gave him something more than being a buffoon, or Rey if she was not a mary sue.. ind of not feeling an 80 year old Leia though.. people could call that agist or sexist though but my main thing is that it just doesn't seem to fit . Diversify all you want.. but not everything fits

 

[jaime]

but the idea of casting people based on their race or gender.. and THAT is the reason.. is not any less wrong. It's, at best. overcorrecting.

I always believed for example, and I might get hate from this but who cares, that the original SW film was great because the characters fit into the archetypes, the hero, the old mentor, the rogue, the damsel. Like a pulpy sci fi comic book that kids read in the 40s. I would be fine with Finn if they actually gave him something more than being a buffoon, or Rey if she was not a mary sue.. ind of not feeling an 80 year old Leia though.. people could call that agist or sexist though but my main thing is that it just doesn't seem to fit . Diversify all you want.. but not everything fits

The new characters, and their actors, are great....but they aren’t getting much of a story. It’s not quite too late to fix that though.